BREAKING: Windsor Will Begin Building A New Electrified Vehicle In 2024:

[TripleT]

So let me get this straight...

When I grew up as a kid in the 70's and 80's, that is, back when they were still purely American owned, Dodge had NO V8 Muscle cars.

No vocational trucks. I never saw Dodge Tow trucks or utility trucks. I once saw a 60's Power Wagon at a country gas station, but that's it. Everything was either Ford or Chevy.

This pretty much continued up through their big revival in the mid 90's.

Under Fiat stewardship, they took whatever Dodge had, and elevated it to the point they outsold the Mustang!!!! and even the Chevy Silverado!!!!

Back when I grew up, If you had asked 1 million of the most die hard Mopar loyalists (American) if this was even possible, pretty much NONE of them would have said yes.

Heck, you don't even have to go back that far. If you had asked the same question of the entire planet back in 2009, or 2010, NO ONE would have said it was possible.

And yet, the Europeans actually ADDED to the tremendous legend of the Hemi with the Hellcat. That is, if you believe the Europeans were involved with it, rather than the Americans who were running things locally.

Personally, I choose to believe that the people running Dodge and Ram (the brands) have done a great job over the past 10 years. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have something big in store for fans.

Just my opinion.

Know who Tried to Kill Dodge and Chrysler? Like hours away from killing it? Americans... Sitting in New York

Know who pumped it up Dodge to be the Demographic envy of the Industry, took Jeep world wide, and made Ram a contender for the best Truck brand in the world.... Yeah the Italians

So the Xeno complaints run thin a bit... We will see how the french do, they don't seem to be as passionate about the cars past the coachwork as the Italians but we will see. Some the best powerplants ever offered in Chrysler brand vehicles are straight sixes .... all the high end brand abandoned the V6 for the smoother 6

 

[cygnus]

Suggesting the Italians were the leaders on the V8 is BS - I can name names in Engineering and Powertrain but I'm not going to drop them here. Contributors? Sure.

The Germans killed Chrysler - what was Cerberus going to do to correct the situation that the Germans put Chrysler in? Nothing.

JNAP and Toledo alone minted billions in profit before Daimler, during Daimler, after Daimler, during Fiat, and now under PSA. There was always value there in Jeep and Ram product, car clowns at Daimler destroyed whatever value the L cars produced in the 90s (weird how value destruction always seems to come from people wanting to downsize/change things and not let the truck guys lead), and the genesis of the Dodge stuff came under Daimler but it was implemented in Auburn Hills.

 

[AlexB]

Suggesting the Italians were the leaders on the V8 is BS - I can name names in Engineering and Powertrain but I'm not going to drop them here. Contributors? Sure.

The Germans killed Chrysler - what was Cerberus going to do to correct the situation that the Germans put Chrysler in? Nothing.

JNAP and Toledo alone minted billions in profit before Daimler, during Daimler, after Daimler, during Fiat, and now under PSA. There was always value there in Jeep and Ram product, car clowns at Daimler destroyed whatever value the L cars produced in the 90s (weird how value destruction always seems to come from people wanting to downsize/change things and not let the truck guys lead), and the genesis of the Dodge stuff came under Daimler but it was implemented in Auburn Hills.

Without the Italians, all that stuff from Auburn Hills dies in 2009.
The President of The United States (The first black U.S. President) went on National TV stated there was NO path to viability of standalone Auburn Hills.

Nissan and Renault was offer Chrysler by U.S. Government and in early 2008 by Cerberus, and yet both Carlos (COO AND CEO) said NO to Chrysler.

John Elkann and Sergio were the only investors who wanted Chrysler.
Since the RAM and Dodge official split (always legally existed) RAM seen growth in volume,loyalty, and no longer sold at a “ private label discount” to F-Series.
Meanwhile Dodge no longer the subprime/ moderate income, rental queen low-margin special of the day.

 

[Mopar392]

Suggesting the Italians were the leaders on the V8 is BS - I can name names in Engineering and Powertrain but I'm not going to drop them here. Contributors? Sure.

The Germans killed Chrysler - what was Cerberus going to do to correct the situation that the Germans put Chrysler in? Nothing.

JNAP and Toledo alone minted billions in profit before Daimler, during Daimler, after Daimler, during Fiat, and now under PSA. There was always value there in Jeep and Ram product, car clowns at Daimler destroyed whatever value the L cars produced in the 90s (weird how value destruction always seems to come from people wanting to downsize/change things and not let the truck guys lead), and the genesis of the Dodge stuff came under Daimler but it was implemented in Auburn Hills.

Some of the best V8 made and that was said by journalists, racers, drivers and normal people are the Italian V8s.
Sorry by the L-cars were irrelevant before the Germans and LX.
Yes, Daimler run CDJR on the most possible cost cutting ideas, but they came up with the products we like today. And the Italians perfected them.

 

[Mopar392]

My issue with the French and European side of Stellantis is that they are treating the US side of Stellantis like if it’s European.

 

[cygnus]

Correct. How many near death experiences with foreign ownership do we have to go through for people to really understand what's going on?

There hasn't been a US led Chrysler since 1997 and it's incredible what's been accomplished PREDOMINANTLY with US talent since that time. US Engineering has done more with less and it's not even close vs. Ford & GM. European talent has had add-on contributions.

Meeting the consumer preferences (Dodge V8s, Grand Cherokees, Wranglers, Rams, Wagoneers, Gladiators - you know, the stuff that actually makes money) that produced those profits is LARGELY attributable to US talent.

If this wasn't true, please call Toyota - I'm sure they would love to have you lead some programs stealing marketshare from Chrysler.

 

[AlexB]

My issue with the French and European side of Stellantis is that they are treating the US side of Stellantis like if it’s European.

Actual Carlos kept North America largely alone, except more focus on EV’s and non-vehicle spending.
Both Ford and Mopar have pressured suppliers offset other cost, difference Stellantis is ahead with maximizing revenue per vehicle focus.

 

[TripleT]

My issue with the French and European side of Stellantis is that they are treating the US side of Stellantis like if it’s European.

Not really, thank god we have a bit of independent portfolio that they can't turn the clock back to the 90s top cap formula. They see Alfa and Fiat as just another Brand to do a coachwork engineering job on top of basically identical mechanics. Maybe that isn't horrible since real powertrain will be Samsung, LG, and MM. But we will see how this winter goes think EU overplayed it hand into the Green Energy and the only one properly prepared was the French with modern Nuclear.

 

[AlexB]

Correct. How many near death experiences with foreign ownership do we have to go through for people to really understand what's going on?

There hasn't been a US led Chrysler since 1997 and it's incredible what's been accomplished PREDOMINANTLY with US talent since that time. We, US Engineering, have done more with less and it's not even close vs. Ford & GM. European talent has had add-on contributions.

The consumer preferences exist here, the Customers drive the product direction, and the company tries to get it right with the decisions they make.

Richard Palmer is British and spent his whole life at FIAT.

 

[TripleT]

Without the Italians, all that stuff from Auburn Hills dies in 2009.
The President of The United States (The first black U.S. President) went on National TV stated there was NO path to viability of standalone Auburn Hills.

Nissan and Renault was offer Chrysler by U.S. Government and in early 2008 by Cerberus, and yet both Carlos (COO AND CEO) said NO to Chrysler.

John Elkann and Sergio were the only investors who wanted Chrysler.
Since the RAM and Dodge official split (always legally existed) RAM seen growth in volume,loyalty, and no longer sold at a “ private label discount” to F-Series.
Meanwhile Dodge no longer the subprime/ moderate income, rental queen low-margin special of the day.

I was there only taking Cash to supply them when Nissan was taking Ram, VW the Minivan, and CCCP was taking Jeep .... Dodge and Chrysler were set to be auctioned as hard asset Magna maybe would take some of the scraps. It was a last hour that the company was saved intact.

Anyone that doesn't believe Italians are passionate about cars hasn't spent time with them, only Americans can revival there love affair with the automobile, in very distinctive ways.

As for US engineers... they can't even get people to go to Auburn Hills there was a giant drain of talent in Detroit's last purge.... Much of the work has been done in Italy and hard work done in India. They are certainly part of the formula but pretending that it all USA USA .... it just not factual.

 

[Mopar392]

Actual Carlos kept North America largely alone, except more focus on EV’s and non-vehicle spending.
Both Ford and Mopar have pressured suppliers offset other cost, difference Stellantis is ahead with maximizing revenue per vehicle focus.

Not really, thank god we have a bit of independent portfolio that they can't turn the clock back to the 90s top cap formula. They see Alfa and Fiat as just another Brand to do a coachwork engineering job on top of basically identical mechanics. Maybe that isn't horrible since real powertrain will be Samsung, LG, and MM. But we will see how this winter goes think EU overplayed it hand into the Green Energy and the only one properly prepared was the French with modern Nuclear.

The GW, GC and the 3.0l and some others are products of the legacy FCA.
Since Carlos came into the picture, he is pushing the EV on every single American branch of the portfolio. Nothing wrong with that if the market is heading toward that direction.
But he’s stopping or holding other ICE products.

 

[TripleT]

The GW, GC and the 3.0l and some others are products of the legacy FCA.
Since Carlos came into the picture, he is pushing the EV on every single American branch of the portfolio. Nothing wrong with that if the market is heading toward that direction.
But he’s stopping or holding other ICE products.

Look you have to pay attention Some of the Biggest markets in America a banning the sales of ICE vehicles. Those location especially if NY follows and no doubt they will, account for half the population of the Country. You think the company survives when they cannot sell to HALF the population?

I don't like it either but it is the reality. You cannot be upset or critical of management making the only decision they can to stay in those markets. The criticism is not to Carlos but to those states deciding what the market will be, despite what the market demands. The people of those states voted in those people it lies at there feet.

 

[James.A]

So are we sure that the Charger will not have a PHEV? I sure hope it will. That would be my choice.

 

[Mopar392]

Fair point.

 

[TripleT]

So are we sure that the Charger will not have a PHEV? I sure hope it will. That would be my choice.

Product plans change nothing is set in Stone

 

[AlexB]

Look you have to pay attention Some of the Biggest markets in America a banning the sales of ICE vehicles. Those location especially if NY follows and no doubt they will, account for half the population of the Country. You think the company survives when they cannot sell to HALF the population?

I don't like it either but it is the reality. You cannot be upset or critical of management making the only decision they can to stay in those markets. The criticism is not to Carlos but to those states deciding what the market will be, despite what the market demands. The people of those states voted in those people it lies at there feet.

New York is Jeep’s largest volume state, too.

 

[patfromigh]

Last I heard GM was going "all in" on BEV, so what does the future look like for the Camaro? GM is already on the way to making battery electric vehicle technology the next diesel V8 moment. When I saw the video of Mary Barra showing a certain someone the Corvette at the Detroit Auto Show, all I could think of is Dr. Porsche and that guy with the funny mustache collaborating on the VW project.

I expect a PHEV drivetrain for the Charger and Challenger. I was surprised there isn't a hybrid tune for the Hurricane revealed yet. The PHEV Jeeps are solid money makers. If management ignores expanding hybrid options then Stellantis is doomed. It could be the Wagoneer is just too porky for the ZF hybrid transmission. One of the rumors for the Ram extended range EV is that the range extender will be in the truck bed. That would also leave the Wagoneer out of the picture. This might be why the alternative drivetrain for the Wagoneer will only be battery electric. This is all according to the rumors.

 

[James.A]

Perhaps the PHEV Chargers will arrive a few model years after 2024.

 

[Jared B]

According to a good and trusted source of mine, there are Hurricane HO PHEVs in testing, and I've been told they can make some BIG power. I'm just going to leave it at that for now. Will they make it to production? I'd like to think so.

There also might be another big surprise, but at the rate that things change in the automotive world these days it's too far out to know if it will come to fruition or not.

I understand about a company not wanting to talk about future products, but I am actually surprised at Dodge not trying to do any damage control about all the rumors going around at this point. I get that they're trying to push the 2023 L cars hard so I know why the leaned into the messaging the way they did.

At the same time, it's like the whole automotive media has forgotten the way the industry works. I've seen some absolutely ridiculous headlines over the past month or so, although I guess clickbait works.

No the Charger/Challenger aren't getting killed, they're being replaced by a new generation. Every time a car gets a redesign, and new platform, is it getting killed? No.
Yes, there will be ICE versions available. Just because a BEV concept car was shown doesn't mean that's all that will be available.
A big part of the problem is there is a huge community of guys on YouTube that don't know anything or even how the automotive industry works that talk out their asses like they're some kind of insider. It seems to be more prevalent for Dodge than any other company.
I love my big V8s, I love Hellcats, so I don't love what's happening either, BUT the future isn't as bleak as it's being made to look.

 

[TripleT]

According to a good and trusted source of mine, there are Hurricane HO PHEVs in testing, and I've been told they can make some BIG power. I'm just going to leave it at that for now. Will they make it to production? I'd like to think so.

There also might be another big surprise, but at the rate that things change in the automotive world these days it's too far out to know if it will come to fruition or not.

I understand about a company not wanting to talk about future products, but I am actually surprised at Dodge not trying to do any damage control about all the rumors going around at this point. I get that they're trying to push the 2023 L cars hard so I know why the leaned into the messaging the way they did.

At the same time, it's like the whole automotive media has forgotten the way the industry works. I've seen some absolutely ridiculous headlines over the past month or so, although I guess clickbait works.

No the Charger/Challenger aren't getting killed, they're being replaced by a new generation. Every time a car gets a redesign, and new platform, is it getting killed? No.
Yes, there will be ICE versions available. Just because a BEV concept car was shown doesn't mean that's all that will be available.
A big part of the problem is there is a huge community of guys on YouTube that don't know anything or even how the automotive industry works that talk out their asses like they're some kind of insider. It seems to be more prevalent for Dodge than any other company.
I love my big V8s, I love Hellcats, so I don't love what's happening either, BUT the future isn't as bleak as it's being made to look.

It is Brilliant to not talk about the future let ambiguous'ity florish ..... it driving margin.... selling special additions. Creating urgency. Instead of dropping the price of the model 13, because the 14 is out. Or having people say hey I just wait for the 14. People are OH damn I better get a 13 now, and I better get the most expensive versions.

Stomping feet and throwing Social Media temper tantrums isn't going change this direction because it is working. Hell a model that could barely make 2 sales a dealership just sold out in one day when a more expensive version was offered "Last call". The only damage control is how to count all the money.