Fiat Chrysler to invest €166 million in Poland, says Deputy PM

[Bili]

The anxiety of overlap is what made FCA Italy sell less and less, what makes margins shrink, what makes models die on powerpoint. If you can't fund development of an Alfa E-SUV on its own, you can build it together with a Jeep or Maserati. If Maserati stays true to their recovered luxury focus it's quite easy to differentiate it from it's premium Alfa sister models. And it's not hard to differentiate it from the bread-and-butter brands. Also 500 and Alfa would always have pretty different character. VW manages to do it, PSA does.

I guess Alfas strange sequence of model launches is simply based on opportunities. Now they got the easy opportunity to fund a B-SUV. 1. through FCA sisters, 2. through CMP platform. No money and momentum for strategic planning. For a new Giulietta they didn't have matching FCA sisters in planning.

First of all there is big problem with shared sales network.
There is no point of having two similar products. No one is doing that.

VW managed to make cars on the same platform with different character? Far from truth especially with the newest generation of MQB A1 based cars. All are very similar, especially inside. For example interior is part where PSA better differentiate their products. All controls and design language are different for each brand. But then look at the outside and one could mess Corsa and 208 looking at their silhouettes.
And tell me where is a difference between Škoda Karoq and Seat Ateca because I can't find one.

So separate dealership network would help to put life into some brands. For example Chrysler. It's ideal people mover brand for North America. And please do not propose just a simple Pug rebadge.

But if you look at FCA you have some twins like Renegade and 500X. They look totally different. AFAIK even some structural parts are slightly different executed. You'll not find that in VAG empire.

BTW from what I've heard Mike Manley is the name of guy who stopped 2 Alfa Romeo projects, 1 Maserati, and switched 1 Alfa project over to Maserati. I'm talking about cats which were in phase where you have signed contracts with suppliers.
One of such cars is Alfa Romeo E segment SUV. Its development was always connected to Grand Cherokee WL. Development, not necessarily production.

 

[pumadog]

VW managed to make cars on the same platform with different character?

Nah, I never said that! At last the SUV from VW/Skoda/Seat are totally interchangeable. That's one reason I was totally against VW buying Alfa. But they manage to sell all of them. I think PSA is much better in differenciating their brands. And when we're talking about shared platforms, why so sure that FCA brands couldn't have special branches, while still sharing much of the costs? Or FCA/PSA joining forces in platform evolution? This is a 50:50 merger, not like the Opel purchase which had no intellectual property and needed to get rid of GM tech ASAP.

About cannibalisation at dealerships, is that a problem in Europe? Peugeot/Citroën/Opel are (always?) separate already. Alfa got moved away to the "premium" bundle with Jeep. Even if they use the same platform, they'll always be extremely different in character. And you couldn't confuse a Mito with a Punto. Totally different style, proportions and expression. So I'm confident for "Brennero". In the US, similar Chrysler and Dodge would be a problem. But Chrysler/Jeep or Dodge/Jeep on the same platform should always leave huuuge room for differentiation. Alfa Stelvio and Maserati Grecale in the same US showroom could be interesting. Depends on style, engines and equipment. But some overlap here and there is much better than the lack of models!

I don't think people cross-shop between different brands from the same group much more than between brands from different groups. Average people see models and brands, not the groups behind.

 

[Deckard Cain]

LOL, did you have a look at German premium compacts lately? Mass market tech with better materials, infotainment and aftersales. An Audi A3 was never more than a Golf, Leon or Octavia with snappy switchgear. Alfa's compact was never the most spacious. You prefer no C Alfa anymore? Because that's the alternative.

The german premium compacts lately are completely shameful. They're all FWD and they're not much better than generalists unless you spend a lot more money.
As for the engines of the 308, sorry but it is inaccurate that top engine in terms of size is 1.6L. They also have a 2.0 diesel engine. So it could probably fit the 2.0GME.
As for AWD, a PHEV version would address that. Now imagine a AWD PHEV Giulietta with the 2.0 GME.

First of all there is big problem with shared sales network.
There is no point of having two similar products. No one is doing that.

VW managed to make cars on the same platform with different character? Far from truth especially with the newest generation of MQB A1 based cars. All are very similar, especially inside. For example interior is part where PSA better differentiate their products. All controls and design language are different for each brand. But then look at the outside and one could mess Corsa and 208 looking at their silhouettes.
And tell me where is a difference between Škoda Karoq and Seat Ateca because I can't find one.

So separate dealership network would help to put life into some brands. For example Chrysler. It's ideal people mover brand for North America. And please do not propose just a simple Pug rebadge.

But if you look at FCA you have some twins like Renegade and 500X. They look totally different. AFAIK even some structural parts are slightly different executed. You'll not find that in VAG empire.

BTW from what I've heard Mike Manley is the name of guy who stopped 2 Alfa Romeo projects, 1 Maserati, and switched 1 Alfa project over to Maserati. I'm talking about cats which were in phase where you have signed contracts with suppliers.
One of such cars is Alfa Romeo E segment SUV. Its development was always connected to Grand Cherokee WL. Development, not necessarily production.

Hell, just compare the Mokka X with the 2008: they look a lot different.
And yeah, screw Manley. I'm glad he got screwed over in Stellantis.

 

[Bili]

And when we're talking about shared platforms, why so sure that FCA brands couldn't have special branches, while still sharing much of the costs?

I saw your cheering for CMP platform. In that case no special versions. Say arrivederci to them.

This is a 50:50 merger, not like the Opel purchase which had no intellectual property and needed to get rid of GM tech ASAP.

I'm now confused. Are you for or against CMP platform?

I don't think people cross-shop between different brands from the same group much more than between brands from different groups. Average people see models and brands, not the groups behind.

People in most European countries and in America visit unified FCA dealerships sans Maserati and sometimes Alfa. So yes, for them they are unified, they act as one. Not to mention that there is a limit on how many different nameplates dealership can handle. They are already past maximum in US and all of that with minimal number of Dodge and Chrysler nameplates.

And for what I know and what I saw many if not most Italian car fans do not make differentiation between their brands. Italy could be outside of this rule. But Alfisti usually prefer 500 Fiats, not regular ones.

 

[Bili]

The german premium compacts lately are completely shameful. They're all FWD and they're not much better than generalists unless you spend a lot more money.

Ah, yes. They are in their base versions. But for example Audi-fahrer goes to a shop order 1.4 TSI or now 1.5 TSI or even 1.6 TDI and order it as S-Line. Why? Because super-duper S3 or RS3 are there to make him wish S-Line package/trim level and he/she'll pay extra for it.

It's very hard to have the same outcome when you don't have top of the line model, when you don't have Veloce trim with at least 300 HP or in the case of small SUV Veloce trim with more than 200 HP.

As for the engines of the 308, sorry but it is inaccurate that top engine in terms of size is 1.6L. They also have a 2.0 diesel engine. So it could probably fit the 2.0GME.
As for AWD, a PHEV version would address that. Now imagine a AWD PHEV Giulietta with the 2.0 GME.

We don't know if 2.0 GME fits as it is. Ancillaries positioning is also very important.

If you've listened ex Alfa Romeo and Maserati CTO, now Centro Ricerche Fiat CEO, he said that PHEV is not the right way for Alfa electrification, at least not for performance versions. And then he mentioned 2.0 MHEV tech with eBooster i.e. electric supercharger.

At this point PHEV brings to much weight to the table and would hurt handling. It's doable with MHEV.

As we know Alfa is not (only) about acceleration. In the first place it's about handling, about cornering and about steering precision.

Hell, just compare the Mokka X with the 2008: they look a lot different.

Two very different cars in terms of size. IMO PSA screwed Mokka with giving it short wheelbase. 2008 is (much) bigger car.

But look at Corsa and 208. Very similar silhouettes. They couldn't do different because Corsa reskin took only 28 months. But @TripleT is more competent than me to talk about reskins.

 

[pumadog]

I'm not for or against CMP. I'm for Alfas on the street instead of vaporware. And I hope for the combination of the best elements from PSA <> FCA.

Also, size and measurements are not my main concern for a cars appeal. That might be important for economy cars and Autobild tests, but people care less for it the more you go into premium territory. Nobody would buy a X6 or similar. Otherwise I wouldn't be an Alfista since they mostly had pretty small offerings in the last decades. I wouldn't have bought a MINI Cooper S, I wouldn't drive a 125i Cabrio when I could have a much bigger Skoda for the money.

If you've listened ex Alfa Romeo and Maserati CTO, now Centro Ricerche Fiat CEO, he said that PHEV is not the right way for Alfa electrification, at least not for performance versions. And then he mentioned 2.0 MHEV tech with eBooster i.e. electric supercharger.

Then it's too bad they go for Tonale with PHEV as the (initial?) top version.

 

[Deckard Cain]

I'm not for or against CMP. I'm for Alfas on the street instead of vaporware. And I hope for the combination of the best elements from PSA <> FCA.

Exactly my viewpoint.

 

[AlexB]

I'm not for or against CMP. I'm for Alfas on the street instead of vaporware. And I hope for the combination of the best elements from PSA <> FCA.

Also, size and measurements are not my main concern for a cars appeal. That might be important for economy cars and Autobild tests, but people care less for it the more you go into premium territory. Nobody would buy a X6 or similar. Otherwise I wouldn't be an Alfista since they mostly had pretty small offerings in the last decades. I wouldn't have bought a MINI Cooper S, I wouldn't drive a 125i Cabrio when I could have a much bigger Skoda for the money.


Then it's too bad they go for Tonale with PHEV as the (initial?) top version.

Exactly my viewpoint.

I agree with both of you generally, but I believe John’s POV and his judgement of Carlos performance is:

1:Getting the cost saving synergy targets done ASAP

2: (This is really an extended of point 1) Get the stock price/market capitalization above $31 (per share)/over $100 billion to have the power to archive “the Real/Big” Merger which is GM or Daimler (PSA wasn’t John or Sergio number 1 merger pick).
3:Avoid/limited employment losses in Italy and France.
Given the upcoming changes to U.S . C02, I expect it to be GM which is better for Alfa than trying to co-exist with Mercedes-Benz brand.

 

[Bili]

@AlexB

I'm thinking about BMW. It should be the perfect dance partner.

Daimler brings huge truck and bus division.

GM brings issue with merger approval in US and is not strong in China or it is but with no so good prospects. Only Germans have no issues there.

 

[pumadog]

If they needed another merger, I'd also prefer BMW.

But I'm not sure that it would be advantageous to merge to the extreme. After some point it becomes a fat, immobile, unmanageable tanker.

Some media outlets speculate that Stellantis might absorb Jaguar Land Rover.

 

[Deckard Cain]

I hope there's no more mergers for the foreseeable future.

 

[TripleT]

Asia will be addressed eventually

 

[AlexB]

@AlexB

I'm thinking about BMW. It should be the perfect dance partner.

Daimler brings huge truck and bus division.

GM brings issue with merger approval in US and is not strong in China or it is but with no so good prospects. Only Germans have no issues there.

If they needed another merger, I'd also prefer BMW.

But I'm not sure that it would be advantageous to merge to the extreme. After some point it becomes a fat, immobile, unmanageable tanker.

Some media outlets speculate that Stellantis might absorb Jaguar Land Rover.

FCA/Stellantis would spin off Daimler Van& Large commercial Truck units to Daimler shareholders prior to a closing date into their own independent company (especially since the European Union complain about the size of the Stellantis van business).

Quandt/Klatten family owns nearly half of BMW, they would become the largest investor of Stellantis, so that’s a likely no unless John was willing to give up his role or Stellantis borrowed like $60 billion of debt.

If one believes in the $10 billion savings (or greater) number with 25% -27% percent marketshare ,the GM deal would make the switch to an all EV regulatory framework in North America easier given the combine volume of RAM+Chevy even if GMC (+ GM Mexico Truck Plant)was sold to a Honda.
Also Jeep Hummer reunion (AMC) with Hummer becoming “Range Rover” series within the Jeep brand.
Buick North America,Fiat brand in North America and Chrysler gets discontinued.
RAM and Chevy both start selling minivans.

U.S. transition to electric will no doubt be tougher than E.U. given the size of products U.S. purchase together with the amount rural areas, and will become the number 1 challenge for Stellantis once Europe is well-integrated.

 

[TripleT]

FCA/Stellantis would spin off Daimler Van& Large commercial Truck units to Daimler shareholders prior to a closing date into their own independent company (especially since the European Union complain about the size of the Stellantis van business).

Quandt/Klatten family owns nearly half of BMW, they would become the largest investor of Stellantis, so that’s a likely no unless John was willing to give up his role or Stellantis borrowed like $60 billion of debt.

If one believes in the $10 billion savings (or greater) number with 25% -27% percent marketshare ,GM deal would the switch to all EV’s in North America easier given the combine volume of RAM+Chevy even if GMC (+ GM Mexico Truck Plant)was sold to a Honda.
Also Jeep Hummer reunion (AMC) with Hummer becoming “Range Rover” series within the Jeep brand.
Buick North America,Fiat brand in North America and Chrysler gets discontinued.
RAM and Chevy both start selling minivans.

U.S. transition will to electric will no doubt be tougher than E.U. given the size of products U.S. purchase together with the amount rural areas.

and lack of electrical grid capacity. California who leads the way will show the disaster of getting the Cart before the horse as they were already closing businesses in high demand parts of the year beyond the contracted blackout agreements.

 

[Bili]

They took 28 months to make a clone without any significant change for exterior design. And now someone is telling me that they will do a new car in 24 months with unique design and feasibility study included in those 24 months. Is someone joking?

 

[TripleT]

they are.

 

[Mopar392]

Slap on Fiat’s front end and call it a day

 

[TripleT]

that is still 20 weeks to T1 after approval that doesn't include design and validation ..... and supply chain filling.

 

[Deckard Cain]

They rushed the Corsa like that ASAP to decrease the payments to GM. And even that is an improvement over the old Corsa... With time they would've done something more differentiated and I believe they even admitted to this.

The Citroen C3 is built on the older platform. Who knows, maybe they could pair the new generation of the C3 with a new Fiat Punto by slapping a Fiat badge on it - to me that's still better than Fiat's absence from the B-segment.

 

[KrisW]

Yes, Corsa F was ready to go on a GM platform (G2XX as used for Opel Karl and Chevy Spark; the D and E revisions were on the GM branch of SCSS, basically unchanged since the Grande Punto), and so keeping it would have been a licencing cost for PSA well into the future.

I have only had a small brush with mass-manufacturing, and the biggest surprise for me was how long lead-times can be. Turns out that if you want to make lots and lots of something, and make it well and make it cheaply, you need to spend a long time preparing the process.

It's true that FIAT got Bravo into production in just 18 months from design freeze, but the design freeze isn't the start of the process. And when all was said and done, Bravo could have done with more actual on-road time: FIAT was first to completely model a new car's NVH characteristics within a computer simulation, but that meant they were also first to realize that this isn't a replacement for lots of on-road testing too.