Fiat Chrysler to invest €166 million in Poland, says Deputy PM

[sjon]

The video is 2 months old. The letter to developers and Tychy (about switching to CMP) is 6 months old, from July 2020. And they stated then that it's a cooperation independent from the Stellantis merger. So who knows if/when FCA started adapting the GSE engines for it? And don't you think that PSA's announcement to stop combustion engine development could have to do with a switch to the fresh FCA engines?

Where did you get that the 500 platform (E-Mini) is AWD capable? ICE/hybrid yes, but AWD? Anyway, if you look at the European B segment, AWD doesn't really matter. Jeep doesn't offer mechanical AWD for the Renegade here, why should they on the smaller SUV? It would be sad to miss a future AWD Panda (Centoventi) though.

Some people are mentioning 5 door 500 EV again.
Any news in your part of the world?

 

[Bili]

Some people are mentioning 5 door 500 EV again.
Any news in your part of the world?

Fake news. That's all I can say.

Such projects has not been green lit... Yet.

3 new cars are SUVs or if you prefer different naming crossovers.

 

[Bili]

I think that I may say it here.

Two Giorgio based Alfa Romeo projects are frozen. They are waiting for Tavares to give green light.

One is a 5 door lift back. Some say it's a long wheelbase Giulia called Alfetta. The other are talking about next gen Giulia.
Bu it's always 5 door lift back.

The other is an E segment SUV. This was project for which they had signed contracts with suppliers under Sergio. Manley made them void.
Back then it was directly related to Jeep WL project i.e. the next generation Grand Cherokee.

 

[pumadog]

When do you think they'll announce some product plan or strategy? Btw, PSA investors said yes this morning.

If lift back is what I think (coupélike hatchback) I think that could be a good move for Giulia or Alfetta. Way more practical than a classic sedan and sellable worldwide.

 

[Bili]

@pumadog

Very good question.

I believe that could be in the mid 2021. It depends on merger completion. IMO fall of 2021 at the latest.

But... In contrary to FCA's plans those from PSA are usually about new technologies, platforms and of course EU fleet CO2 targets. They usually also talk about margin targets. Very little about specific car models.

What I can say that European parts of 2 respective groups have started to collaborate since mid 2020. I can't remember if it was June or July. From what I've heard it could be earlier for North American side. It's related to possible fines from EU.

I can't remember if I've talked about market segmentation by brands. Of course it's subject to change.

This is only for EU market.

Generalist - Fiat, Citroen
Upper generalist or anti VW - Peugeot, Opel
Premium - pole Alfa Romeo, DS, Lancia
Luxury - Maserati

Jeep is out of picture with their own segmentation. It's a special brand. It fits all from bottom end to premium or even luxury.

If you ask me I would say kill DS and Lancia with immediate effect. I think that some trim levels of Peugeot and even 500 family can take their plans.
Put your efforts into Alfa and Maserati at the premium and luxury end of the market.

 

[pumadog]

Generalist - Fiat, Citroen
Upper generalist or anti VW - Peugeot, Opel
Premium - pole Alfa Romeo, DS, Lancia
Luxury - Maserati

That's pretty much the current positioning/aim. I'm quite sure a 5-door 500 would eat much of the Ypsilon sales, so less and less reason for Lancia being a full brand. DS doesn't have much substance anyway. So I would also degrade Abarth to a sporty trim line (again) and use Lancia for luxurious Fiats, DS for Citroën trims. Abarth's life won't get easier anyway in an electric future…

 

[Deckard Cain]

@pumadog

Very good question.

I believe that could be in the mid 2021. It depends on merger completion. IMO fall of 2021 at the latest.

But... In contrary to FCA's plans those from PSA are usually about new technologies, platforms and of course EU fleet CO2 targets. They usually also talk about margin targets. Very little about specific car models.

What I can say that European parts of 2 respective groups have started to collaborate since mid 2020. I can't remember if it was June or July. From what I've heard it could be earlier for North American side. It's related to possible fines from EU.

I can't remember if I've talked about market segmentation by brands. Of course it's subject to change.

This is only for EU market.

Generalist - Fiat, Citroen
Upper generalist or anti VW - Peugeot, Opel
Premium - pole Alfa Romeo, DS, Lancia
Luxury - Maserati

Jeep is out of picture with their own segmentation. It's a special brand. It fits all from bottom end to premium or even luxury.

If you ask me I would say kill DS and Lancia with immediate effect. I think that some trim levels of Peugeot and even 500 family can take their plans.
Put your efforts into Alfa and Maserati at the premium and luxury end of the market.

I wouldn't discontinue DS. I do agree that Lancia is a dead brand. IMO they should just sell it to a chinese company.
As for Alfa, if it's to popularize the brand IMO they should go for a C-segment competitor to the 1-Series, A-class and A3. They had some legendary models there. Not a B-SUV.

 

[Bili]

I wouldn't discontinue DS. I do agree that Lancia is a dead brand. IMO they should just sell it to a chinese company.
As for Alfa, if it's to popularize the brand IMO they should go for a C-segment competitor to the 1-Series, A-class and A3. They had some legendary models there. Not a B-SUV.

DS sold around 2700 DS3 Crossback units per month. And that's preCOVID.

We are talking about small and inexpensive car. Cars like that are extremely popular in France. So something is off.

Better to kill it.

From my observation in last years Peugeot has been elevated to a similar level where DS wants to stand. Chic brand with no mechanical substance sold at elevated price. So just keep pushing Peugeot.

Alfa and B segment SUV? As I've said it depends on execution. New MiTo would not being desired results. Sort of crossover replacement for Giulietta? That's totally different story.

 

[pumadog]

A replacement for the Giulietta can only be a C hatchback as long as this very popular segment doesn't fade away. Alfa has almost continuous history and success in this segment since 50 years. I hope it comes back, now that sister cars are on the horizon. And that doesn't rule out a B segment offering.

@Deckard Cain do you see a role in DS that no other brand can fulfill? It doesn't sell well and plays mostly in smaller segments. Doesn't do the original DS justice. If they keep DS they might rebadge it as Lancia in Italy – if that brand name is so powerful at Italian women still.

 

[Bili]

A replacement for the Giulietta can only be a C hatchback as long as this very popular segment doesn't fade away.

If you ask me I wouldn't offer it as classic looking hatchback. Maybe as 5 door liftback so that it can be sold in US. One body, two markets.

But on which platform? In terms of suspension typology PSA doesn't offer suitable platform, not at the level of MQB A1 or MQB A2.

 

[TripleT]

38weeks on some of the large injection molding components without testing and developments. So full flushed out high volume production models on the schedule suggested is either impossible or impossibly optimistic .... You pick.

Sorry or it something they already developed on a existing property

 

[pumadog]

If you ask me I wouldn't offer it as classic looking hatchback. Maybe as 5 door liftback so that it can be sold in US. One body, two markets.

But on which platform? In terms of suspension typology PSA doesn't offer suitable platform, not at the level of MQB A1 or MQB A2.

Like the Alfa 146? I don't think that style is very popular in European C segment. They don't have to sell it in the US. Might do an additional body style if the Tonale isn't enough for that market. Don't you think Alfa/FCA engineers would be able to develop a more sophisticated branch of the EMP/VMP, like they did with the Tipo 2 platform for Alfa 156 etc.?

Do you think they could build an Alfa-worthy hatchback on Small Wide? After all they have the fresh Tonale line in Pomigliano, which will never run with full power for only one Alfa model. What's the reason for not building it in Melfi? But except from the low budget Fiat Ægea/Tipo there's only high riding vehicles on Small Wide. Did that platform go SUV only?

Stellantis wants to build 2/3 of it's vehicles on just 2 platforms. That's roughly 6 million. Almost all Alfas could belong to the remaining 3 million.

 

[Deckard Cain]

A replacement for the Giulietta can only be a C hatchback as long as this very popular segment doesn't fade away. Alfa has almost continuous history and success in this segment since 50 years. I hope it comes back, now that sister cars are on the horizon. And that doesn't rule out a B segment offering.

@Deckard Cain do you see a role in DS that no other brand can fulfill? It doesn't sell well and plays mostly in smaller segments. Doesn't do the original DS justice. If they keep DS they might rebadge it as Lancia in Italy – if that brand name is so powerful at Italian women still.

I think a B segment offering should be ruled out. Alfa must have more exclusive models.
Saying that the DS is redundant, then you could say the same about Alfa. The DS7 sells way more than the Stelvio even if it's an inferior product.

 

[Bili]

Like the Alfa 146? I don't think that style is very popular in European C segment. They don't have to sell it in the US. Might do an additional body style if the Tonale isn't enough for that market.

More like Audi A3 sedan but with rear hatch. Or if you prefer Škoda Octavia but not as long. There is also Hyundai i30 Fastback to look at.
This would make it somewhat acceptable in US which is not possible with classic looking hatchback.

Usually cars with 5 doors have similar or same structure of rear end. One example is Audi A5 Sportback and Audi A4 wagon. In terms of structure those 2 cars are the same. Go with classic sedan and you have far less structural reinforcements at the rear end and lower mass of the car.

146? I haven't thought about it. At the time almost all popular European 5 door hatchbacks except Golf had such look. Opel Astra, Renault Megane, Fiat Brava, Ford Escort.

Don't you think Alfa/FCA engineers would be able to develop a more sophisticated branch of the EMP/VMP, like they did with the Tipo 2 platform for Alfa 156 etc.?

Of course they can do a lot. But would they be allowed to do so?

Also can they hit all engineering goals, not just handling. For example interior space, combination of good ride quality with exceptional handling. There is of course more.

Just for example. Peugeot 508 which should be on EMP2 v2 has no more interior space than Alfa Giulia. And most of modern FWD compact cars nowadays can offer similar interior space as Giulia.
This is first headache for compact Alfa on this platform. Inefficient packaging.
I chose 508 because it's smallest low slung EMP2 car with rear multilink suspension.

EPM2 v2 in general has packaging issues with low slung cars like 308 II or 508 II. They are at bottom end for passenger space, combined leg room.

The question is what will change with EMP2 v3 and eVMP (EMP2 v4). 308 III on EMP2 v3 will have PHEV version but will it have rear multilink suspension.

Do you think they could build an Alfa-worthy hatchback on Small Wide? After all they have the fresh Tonale line in Pomigliano, which will never run with full power for only one Alfa model. What's the reason for not building it in Melfi? But except from the low budget Fiat Ægea/Tipo there's only high riding vehicles on Small Wide. Did that platform go SUV only?

For sure Small Wide cars can offer plenty of passenger space. It will be no different with Tonale. Already Tipo and Compass are offering a lot of leg room.

Question here is. Can a low sitting car on Small Wide be PHEV capable? Can it offer mechanical AWD? And what about rear suspension choice. Rear MacPherson as is used by Compass or even 500X consumes a lot of vertical space in cargo area. Thus Compass doesn't shine when it comes to cargo capacity. But this suspension scheme can offer excellent handling as was shown in the past by Lancia Delta and later by Alfas 156 and 147.

And the other issue with this platform is BEV capability. They'll need to update it for that. Will Stellantis go into such venture? Is it already dead by arrival of eVMP?

SUV only platforms? Interesting. For sure we have and we will have some nice SUVs on it which are IMO very competitive offerings.

Stellantis wants to build 2/3 of it's vehicles on just 2 platforms. That's roughly 6 million. Almost all Alfas could belong to the remaining 3 million.

Yes, Tavares pushes it. FCA side is not so keen. FCA's cost slash came with different methods. I.e. you don't need to share platforms for components sharing.

 

[Bili]

I think a B segment offering should be ruled out. Alfa must have more exclusive models.

As I said it depends on how it's executed. Small Wide short wheelbase Tonale based would be a perfect choice.

So for me:
Small Wide > e-Mini Wide > CMP

 

[TripleT]

That is my question did the Tonale grow out of the B segment... is it actually C or just B+? And yes it has phase to Lightening

 

[Bili]

That is my question did the Tonale grow out of the B segment... is it actually C or just B+? And yes it has phase to Lightening

In Europe it's true compact segment. Just as is Compass.

Renegade is B+ in Europe.

I can't comment about US.

Dunno if it will have longer wheelbase than Compass. Possible.

 

[TripleT]

so basically a small C

 

[Bili]

so basically a small C

As I said it could be in US but it's no different than direct European market competition, both premium and generalist. Actually it's quite roomy inside, luggage capacity could be better. I don't know if they will improve with Tonale. It's related to a rear suspension typology. Rear MacPherson eats vertical space.

 

[Deckard Cain]

so basically a small C

No, it's a typical C. Just like the Tipo, also based on the Small-Wide is one of the roomiest C hatchbacks in the market.