Fiat Chrysler to invest €166 million in Poland, says Deputy PM

[AlexB]

This doesn't change the fact that (originally) Jeep B segment SUV was developed with AWD in mind.

This is cost cutter's i.e. Tavares' call.

E-Mini is technically superior platform to CMP. No doubt about it.

We may see more calls like this in the future. I'm getting more afraid for LATAM marker. They may bring some more brilliant ideas like pushing CMP to Fiat and Jeep in Brazil.

But some E-MINI projects(I believe a Compass version) are too close to production, so an updated E-Mini replace CMP (post 2026).

 

[Bili]

But some E-MINI projects(I believe a Compass version) are too close to production, so an updated E-Mini replace CMP (post 2026).

Ehm, what?

Compass on e-Mini? I doubt that Compass would end up in Fiat 500 platform.

AFAIK both Renegade and Compass should grow with new generation. Although a lot could change with PSA coming into play. Bigger could mean bigger on the outside but not inside.

 

[AlexB]

Ehm, what?

Compass on e-Mini? I doubt that Compass would end up in Fiat 500 platform.

AFAIK both Renegade and Compass should grow with new generation. Although a lot could change with PSA coming into play. Bigger could mean bigger on the outside but not inside.

One factor that those go back your point about Carlos Tavares coming from ''The School of ''Le Cost killing''......................some decisions are getting made to arrive at the promised cost synergy & savings number ASAP.
It kind of make me think the only things he may do in North America is to slash features while increasing price, which is straight out of Mary Barra playbook of squeeze more margin.

 

[Bili]

One factor that those go back your point about Carlos Tavares coming from ''The School of ''Le Cost killing''......................some decisions are getting made to arrive at the promised cost synergy & savings number ASAP.
It kind of make me think the only things he may do in North America is to slash features while increasing price, which is straight out of Mary Barra playbook of squeeze more margin.

I get it. But I don't understand when the are trying to kill better and newer product. I can't and wan't understand such decisions.

Maybe this is also related to PSA mindset, not just to Carlos the 2nd. They are known for mechanical impoverishment. But this is not good for brands like Jeep and Alfa.

PSA's level of sharing reminds me on communism. And that's not good.

North America? I don't know. Manley is Head of Americas. I don't see much changes coming to North America. I would not exclude some bad calls down South especially if they'll push PSA CMP platform without any logic.

 

[TripleT]

But the point-of-view of Manley back on Investor day/capital markets day was that International Markets care less about trails so Jeep needs to focus more on comfort.

Ridiculous.... call it Fiat then.... when you put Jeep on the body there is a minimum expectation of durability. Manley knows this well. You can't have it falling apart on a trail like it a knock luxury purse Korean CUV. It would devalue the brand.

 

[Bili]

Ridiculous.... call it Fiat then....

Yeah, something along those lines. But even that only if it's a part of Fiat rational family.

From what I've heard incoming PSA team could kill aspirational 500 line. Not only that. Their team think that there is no need to killing European FCA brands. There will be a pole with Alfa, Lancia and DS. At least one if not two are surplus. If you ask me you know which ones. This pole known as premium pole should be led from Turin.

 

[Bili]

I agree, we need young drivers and they would need an affordable car.
We have 2 Mito's in our family and both are enjoyed by their young drivers, who bought them second hand.

So nothing wrong with B segment.

It depends on how is it executed. If it's a proper Alfa or not. MiTo wasn't a proper Alfa.

@pumadog had mentioned never materialised MiTo GTA. It had aluminium front suspension and adjustable shocks. Such suspension scheme would make proper Alfa and should be under every MiTo.
GTA was developed by Phillipe Krief. The very same guy later led development of Giulietta i.e. C-Evo platform. Then he switched to Ferrari for 458 Speciale, came back to FCA to do Giorgio platform and finished work on Giulia and Stelvio. Now he is back at Ferrari.

For Tonale Small Wide and Alfa B-SUV on FCA e-Mini Wide is responsible R&D department in Turin. It's dubber Special Vehicles Division. The very same team or division developed Alfa 4C, Fiat 124 Spider and Abarth 500.
As I've said for this small Alfa they have their eyes on Ford Puma ST.

Roberta Zerbi gave some hints about small Alfa SUV back in March 2019:
“I would like more women [to drive Alfa Romeos],” she said. “Alfa is always seen as the car for the petrolhead. But why? They are such beautiful pieces of design.
“The MiTo did well with women, but only to a certain extent. It was a three-door car, and women have to fit their children behind; a five-door is more appropriate.”

 

[sjon]

It depends on how is it executed. If it's a proper Alfa or not. MiTo wasn't a proper Alfa.

@pumadog had mentioned never materialised MiTo GTA. It had aluminium front suspension and adjustable shocks. Such suspension scheme would make proper Alfa and should be under every MiTo.
GTA was developed by Phillipe Krief. The very same guy later led development of Giulietta i.e. C-Evo platform. Then he switched to Ferrari for 458 Speciale, came back to FCA to do Giorgio platform and finished work on Giulia and Stelvio. Now he is back at Ferrari.

For Tonale Small Wide and Alfa B-SUV on FCA e-Mini Wide is responsible R&D department in Turin. It's dubber Special Vehicles Division. The very same team or division developed Alfa 4C, Fiat 124 Spider and Abarth 500.
As I've said for this small Alfa they have their eyes on Ford Puma ST.

Roberta Zerbi gave some hints about small Alfa SUV back in March 2019:
“I would like more women [to drive Alfa Romeos],” she said. “Alfa is always seen as the car for the petrolhead. But why? They are such beautiful pieces of design.
“The MiTo did well with women, but only to a certain extent. It was a three-door car, and women have to fit their children behind; a five-door is more appropriate.”

I disagree.

 

[Bili]

 

[pumadog]

Nothing new in that video. But if IC/Hybrid versions on E-Mini were to be replaced completely by CMP, would François not rather be quiet about their existence at this point? I could imagine premium A segment and small B cars on E-Mini, SUV on CMP (Evolution).

Don't be so quick to judge the new trio on CMP. You don't know how much evolution will come to the platform from Turin. PSA isn't buying FCA like Opel (which didn't own platforms). And we don't know at all how good these SUVs on E-Mini would turn out. We've only seen an electric city car on it yet. No hard comparisons yet. As this project started as a cooperation before Stellantis, and PSA stopped IC engine development, I just hope the new cars will get GSE power.

How do you know Mito wasn't a proper Alfa? Did you regularly drive one? Were the 159, 147, 155… anything after 1986? What's a proper brand XY war nowadays? It was designed in Arese and tuned in Balocco. Who are you to decide?

 

[Mopar392]

So let me try to understand the current platforms.
We have CMP which is currently subcompact (B) and compact (C) cars.
And we have eMini which is A segment
Both platforms are new and modular so , if I really understand modular platforms, it could benefit each other.
I could see them using eMini for B-SUV and CMP for C-SUV in the future.

Alfa entering the B SUV segment is not wrong. There is some market which can be occupied. For premium, we currently have Audi Q2 and MINI SUV.
When Renegade, which is a B SUV now, came out, enthusiasts didn’t like the idea. But I think the market is appreciating it and it is selling well.

 

[Bili]

Nothing new in that video. But if IC/Hybrid versions on E-Mini were to be replaced completely by CMP, would François not rather be quiet about their existence at this point? I could imagine premium A segment and small B cars on E-Mini, SUV on CMP (Evolution).

But this video is just 2 months old, 2 months older than official news of 3 new cars for Polish factory.

So... Hatches on AWD capable platform with and SUVs on FWD platform? That's what you've implied.

Anyway Francois would look like clown if his statement about more cars on "500 platform" comes out as untruth.

Don't be so quick to judge the new trio on CMP. You don't know how much evolution will come to the platform from Turin. PSA isn't buying FCA like Opel (which didn't own platforms). And we don't know at all how good these SUVs on E-Mini would turn out. We've only seen an electric city car on it yet. No hard comparisons yet. As this project started as a cooperation before Stellantis, and PSA stopped IC engine development, I just hope the new cars will get GSE power.

First of all. Timing is off for any major update for CMP. Actually it's even off for simple reskin. I think that @TripleT may add more to this. Change it to GSE engines would take further time.
We are talking of SOP in H2 2022. This could mean as early as Q3 2022. So roughly 20 or up to 24 months for making some adjustments to CMP platform. Timing just doesn't work unless they've started work on CMP much, much earlier.


Second. PSA is sort of boring with their plans. And their plan is pretty much clear. Calendar 2022 as the year of MHEV introduction for both CMP and EMP2 platform products. Usually this mean no work on platform itself, on mechanical part. This means new electric architecture.

In u-turn this leads us to engine development. PSA will unveil their latest engine development in calendar 2022 and most likely it will be the new version of 1.2 turbo attached to a Punch Powertrains so called e-DCT. Actually it's not DCT because it has single clutch.

The major CMP revision dubbed Smart CMP is slated for calendar 2025 at the earliest. Plans are subject to chanhge.

How do you know Mito wasn't a proper Alfa? Did you regularly drive one? Were the 159, 147, 155… anything after 1986? What's a proper brand XY war nowadays? It was designed in Arese and tuned in Balocco. Who are you to decide?

I would say that traditionally Alfas are all about front end feel and quick-precise steering. This is something which some Alfas had delivered, some didn't.

But if you listen Sergio Limone you'll see that according to him 156 is true Alfa. So 147 would be another one.

Sergio Limone was famous car engineer who made his name at various ex-FGA racing programs. From Abarth to rally Lancias over to DTM and finally 156 for ETCC/WTCC. Especially important are racing series where base was production car and there 156 shinned.

There are English subtitles:

 

[Bili]

So let me try to understand the current platforms.
We have CMP which is currently subcompact (B) and compact (C) cars.
And we have eMini which is A segment
Both platforms are new and modular so , if I really understand modular platforms, it could benefit each other.
I could see them using eMini for B-SUV and CMP for C-SUV in the future.

Well...

This new e-Mini platform is good for A and B segment cars. I don't know naming in US. I think that both classes are joined together and called subcompact.
Maybe they can built small C-segment/Compact cars on it. But that's maybe.
It can be AWD. It can use wide variety of different powertrain technologies including PHEV and BEV.

CMP is in the first place economy platform. It's cheap to make. It's FWD only. Most of cars on it can only receive for stars on EuroNCAP, not five.
It's made for B segment and economy C segment cars.

For bigger and more evolved cars PSA has EMP2 platform which has 2 revisions and will receive 3rd this year with launch of new generation of C/compact segment hatchbacks and wagons. Still IMO it has some drawbacks in mechanical department like no aluminium front suspension or no mechanical AWD. It offers eAWD in addition to
In 2023, some are saying that it's already postponed to 2024, it will receive 4th revision which will debut on their SUV models. They've changed name to eVMP. It will support BEV.

Alfa entering the B SUV segment is not wrong. There is some market which can be occupied. For premium, we currently have Audi Q2 and MINI SUV.
When Renegade, which is a B SUV now, came out, enthusiasts didn’t like the idea. But I think the market is appreciating it and it is selling well.

Renegade is sort of B+ segment SUV just as Q2. They are built on platform which are used for compact cars. They have some mechanical parts which aren't avalaible on usual B segment car like AWD or independent rear suspension.

Mini SUV? Actually it's the same, it has the same dimensions as BMW X1 or X2. Basically it's a proper C segment SUV which is for marketing reasons called B segment. Weird.

I don't think that Alfa will have big and powerful engines like Audi or Mini. This is especially true if PSA CMP is platform choice.
But I bet that FCA engineers will work on driving experience, fun factor and cornering. That's what makes Alfa... Alfa.

 

[sjon]

Second. PSA is sort of boring with their plans. And their plan is pretty much clear. Calendar 2022 as the year of MHEV introduction for both CMP and EMP2 platform products. Usually this mean no work on platform itself, on mechanical part. This means new electric architecture.

That is "a sort of boring" statement on your behalf.
More a sort of allpar opinion.
Please stick to facts.

All FCA and PSA plans will change. Soon we will know more.

 

[pumadog]

But this video is just 2 months old, 2 months older than official news of 3 new cars for Polish factory.

So... Hatches on AWD capable platform with and SUVs on FWD platform? That's what you've implied.

Anyway Francois would look like clown if his statement about more cars on "500 platform" comes out as untruth.



First of all. Timing is off for any major update for CMP. Actually it's even off for simple reskin. I think that @TripleT may add more to this. Change it to GSE engines would take further time.
We are talking of SOP in H2 2022. This could mean as early as Q3 2022. So roughly 20 or up to 24 months for making some adjustments to CMP platform. Timing just doesn't work unless they've started work on CMP much, much earlier.


Second. PSA is sort of boring with their plans. And their plan is pretty much clear. Calendar 2022 as the year of MHEV introduction for both CMP and EMP2 platform products. Usually this mean no work on platform itself, on mechanical part. This means new electric architecture.

In u-turn this leads us to engine development. PSA will unveil their latest engine development in calendar 2022 and most likely it will be the new version of 1.2 turbo attached to a Punch Powertrains so called e-DCT. Actually it's not DCT because it has single clutch.

The major CMP revision dubbed Smart CMP is slated for calendar 2025 at the earliest. Plans are subject to chanhge.



I would say that traditionally Alfas are all about front end feel and quick-precise steering. This is something which some Alfas had delivered, some didn't.

But if you listen Sergio Limone you'll see that according to him 156 is true Alfa. So 147 would be another one.

Sergio Limone was famous car engineer who made his name at various ex-FGA racing programs. From Abarth to rally Lancias over to DTM and finally 156 for ETCC/WTCC. Especially important are racing series where base was production car and there 156 shinned.

There are English subtitles:

The video is 2 months old. The letter to developers and Tychy (about switching to CMP) is 6 months old, from July 2020. And they stated then that it's a cooperation independent from the Stellantis merger. So who knows if/when FCA started adapting the GSE engines for it? And don't you think that PSA's announcement to stop combustion engine development could have to do with a switch to the fresh FCA engines?

Where did you get that the 500 platform (E-Mini) is AWD capable? ICE/hybrid yes, but AWD? Anyway, if you look at the European B segment, AWD doesn't really matter. Jeep doesn't offer mechanical AWD for the Renegade here, why should they on the smaller SUV? It would be sad to miss a future AWD Panda (Centoventi) though.

 

[sjon]

Sergio Limone is a nice guy, but there are some other people who know more about Mito's because they drive them daily and enjoy them enormously.

As I said we have 2 Mito's in the family both QV and bought second hand. One is like the young lads in the video: it only has a cd player !!!
But Alfa fun is experienced every day I am told by our family youngsters and they are looking forward to the next step: a Giulietta QV.

 

[Bili]

That is "a sort of boring" statement on your behalf.
More a sort of allpar opinion.
Please stick to facts.

All FCA and PSA plans will change. Soon we will know more.

Share us your inside knowledge.

Don't be shameful.

Sergio Limone is a nice guy, but there are some other people who know more about Mito's because they drive them daily and enjoy them enormously.

As I said we have 2 Mito's in the family both QV and bought second hand. One is like the young lads in the video: it only has a cd player !!!
But Alfa fun is experienced every day I am told by our family youngsters and they are looking forward to the next step: a Giulietta QV.

View attachment 3864View attachment 3864View attachment 3864

View attachment 3864

So Sergio Limone is just an old fart who knows nothing about proper Alfas or about mechanics which is suitable for proper Alfas?

 

[sjon]

Share us your inside knowledge.

Don't be shameful.



So Sergio Limone is just an old fart who knows nothing about proper Alfas or about mechanics which is suitable for proper Alfas?

Got your big toe caught in the door again, have you?

My, my, my.

I said Limone was a nice guy.

 

[Bili]

The video is 2 months old. The letter to developers and Tychy (about switching to CMP) is 6 months old, from July 2020. And they stated then that it's a cooperation independent from the Stellantis merger. So who knows if/when FCA started adapting the GSE engines for it? And don't you think that PSA's announcement to stop combustion engine development could have to do with a switch to the fresh FCA engines?

Where did you get that the 500 platform (E-Mini) is AWD capable? ICE/hybrid yes, but AWD? Anyway, if you look at the European B segment, AWD doesn't really matter. Jeep doesn't offer mechanical AWD for the Renegade here, why should they on the smaller SUV? It would be sad to miss a future AWD Panda (Centoventi) though.

There is nothing official from FCA about use of CMP platforms. They declined to comment on this subject and said that all plans will be communicated when time comes.

Time has come in October. More cars will use eMini platform.

That's my understanding.


About AWD. People with connection on the inside said so. It's capable for 3 different types of AWD. Classic AWD, ICE on the front with electric motor at the back, two electric motors.

If I'll need to take a guess I would say that 120 could be one of the upcoming triplets.

 

[Bili]

Limone was a nice guy.

Yeah you said so but you implied the opposite in your post.