Electric Or Bust! What Is Your Opinion?

[jam1]

Hi all,
I have not posted much or very little for very long time here or on another well-known Mopar site but have been watching, reading and staying silent. I now feel the need to speak-up in hopes that Dodge is listening and to share my concerns and worries about the direction of Dodge.
Am about to state some information that is fact about myself and some information that is my feelings on the battery power vehicle concept.
Let me preface by saying that I'm a pure 'car/hot-rod enthusiast of the highest degree. I'll refrain from the details but suffice to say I've owned numerous vehicles from the 'Big Three' ranging from 1967 and upwards. I love Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep, etc.
Here goes.
1. I have owned eleven LX cars. I AM the customer. I have supported you. I make no excuses.
2. However, I do not support the company's decision with the Challenger or Charger with no V-8 option. Please don't try to convince me there are no V-8 options even with electric assist options.
3. Offer affordable options from I6, V8, combination of I.C.E. and electric and pure electric. To suddenly walk away from V-8's and leave a whole customer segment hanging with no options is not only a horrible decision but leaves the door open for the competition to take away what you've built for well over a decade. You LED THE WAY. YOU WOKE THE WHOLE MARKET UP. Don't take the passenger seat!
4. You need to re-think your decision. Let the market evolve. Don't fall victim to the latest fad. For the future, don't be late, be ready, but don't leave your customers out in the cold either.

Thank you and this post is meant to be constructive not negative.

 

[TripleT]

Hi all,
I have not posted much or very little for very long time here or on another well-known Mopar site but have been watching, reading and staying silent. I now feel the need to speak-up in hopes that Dodge is listening and to share my concerns and worries about the direction of Dodge.
Am about to state some information that is fact about myself and some information that is my feelings on the battery power vehicle concept.
Let me preface by saying that I'm a pure 'car/hot-rod enthusiast of the highest degree. I'll refrain from the details but suffice to say I've owned numerous vehicles from the 'Big Three' ranging from 1967 and upwards. I love Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep, etc.
Here goes.
1. I have owned eleven LX cars. I AM the customer. I have supported you. I make no excuses.
2. However, I do not support the company's decision with the Challenger or Charger with no V-8 option. Please don't try to convince me there are no V-8 options even with electric assist options.
3. Offer affordable options from I6, V8, combination of I.C.E. and electric and pure electric. To suddenly walk away from V-8's and leave a whole customer segment hanging with no options is not only a horrible decision but leaves the door open for the competition to take away what you've built for well over a decade. You LED THE WAY. YOU WOKE THE WHOLE MARKET UP. Don't take the passenger seat!
4. You need to re-think your decision. Let the market evolve. Don't fall victim to the latest fad. For the future, don't be late, be ready, but don't leave your customers out in the cold either.

Thank you and this post is meant to be constructive not negative.

Honest question ...... Would you pay more possibly a lot more. not trying to convince you, for a slower, more thirsty, heavier V8? Why more expensive you ask? Compliance, and certification. Likely would lose some HP along the way also.

I love mine but no way I am paying more to go slower than the i6. Now there are some that may, you might be one of them, I think it would take a lot of people, to convince that the money people, that to be true.

If there are a lot of people that are willing to pay more just for V8 it is easy for them to do low number of handbuilt modern V8s that won't hurt CAFE numbers or the capacity. So, write a nice note with positive ask...... don't included the take my ball and go home tone this has though.

They are still selling special models ..... they aren't even talking about the i6 yet, so there is NO WAY they talk about special V8 models. We know the STLA Large can handle it because it is in the GC. So, encouraging emails how you would like special SRT additions with a V8 why stop there take 2 i6 heads and make a v12

 

[Rustydodge]

Actually i think a V8 option if it lives would be more expensive to simply help float the electrified offerings. As Tavares has indicated I do believe a lot of recent price hikes have been so these companies can "afford" to offer/design/sell the electrified vehicles at closer to affordable prices. Extra profit from ICE sales allowing less profitable electrified sales in the near term?

Interesting question though if a Dodge/Ram V8 will be more or less expensive than the I6. Really the I6 should be the option that is more expensive than the V8, just like 3.5 ecoboost was/is the more expensive option over 5.0 V8 in F150s. If Dodge/Ram doesnt price it that way, then that's way backwards. Unless 6.4 is the only opton that lives, and it is more expensive then S.O. I6.

 

[TripleT]

Actually i think a V8 option if it lives would be more expensive to simply help float the electrified offerings. As Tavares has indicated I do believe a lot of recent price hikes have been so these companies can "afford" to offer/design/sell the electrified vehicles at closer to affordable prices. Extra profit from ICE sales allowing less profitable electrified sales in the near term?

Interesting question though if a Dodge/Ram V8 will be more or less expensive than the I6. Really the I6 should be the option that is more expensive than the V8, just like 3.5 ecoboost was/is the more expensive option over 5.0 V8 in F150s. If Dodge/Ram doesnt price it that way, then that's way backwards. Unless 6.4 is the only opton that lives, and it is more expensive then S.O. I6.

Well the V8 is a more complicated and material intense engine so on its own is not it not a less expensive engine to build, it is paid for.... but that becomes really irrelevant because all you product should contribute to the capital outlay otherwise you NEVER invest in new developments. Remember the Ford a v6 so it has the complexity of V8 with typically extra complexity to deal with the inherit imbalance.
hy
Add the cost of compliance, in head work, extra emissions, certifications...add any CO2 garbage and CAFE crap. It definitely more expensive. I design is fairly straight (pun intended) forward.
BS

 

[Rustydodge]

I'm not assuming they are designing a new V8, though i'd assume to stay competitive in the HD truck realm that work is already underway. And they've already designed the I6. Compliance costs for our V8 remaining then would be relatively minimal, correct?

I would not agree a pushrod V8 is more complicated than an I6 with twin turbos. I guess it depends on your definition of "complicated" though. Higher qty of parts / materials doesn't necessarily equal more complicated

 

[TripleT]

I'm not assuming they are designing a new V8, though i'd assume to stay competitive in the HD truck realm that work is already underway. And they've already designed the I6. Compliance costs for our V8 remaining then would be relatively minimal, correct?

I would not agree a pushrod V8 is more complicated than an I6 with twin turbos. I guess it depends on your definition of "complicated" though. Higher qty of parts / materials doesn't necessarily equal more complicated

well if emission and CO2 standards were static no development would be needed but we wouldnt be talking at all because that is reality.

V8 even push rods are way more complex the V configuration is inherently complex, i6 is smooth and fairly simple and using a single head makes that even more true. Now is turbo V6 more simple absolutely not. But turbo are extremely simple mostly plumbing but they have got really cleaver with integration of these systems. Have seen so many lines I guess I have perspective that is different. Straight configuration engine dry are amazingly straight forward.and material efficient

 

[Rustydodge]

I'm not in disagreement about an I6 engine layout. If "complexity" were the sole driver then I6 wouldn't have left the offering, or V8 would never have existed.

We have until 2026 for the corporate fleet avg of 49, assuming no delay or changes. Does 2024 have to be a drop dead date for the existing V8s for STLA? Or maybe we cant meet the 8% increase in 2024-25 with V8 option?

 

[TripleT]

Well there were glorious pre-war straight 8, and outstanding turbo engines in motor sports then came affordable with plain 4 and reliable straight 6, well certainly no room for another 2 cylinders ah material and labor is cheap hello V8 wonderful solution at the time, a turbo they were cheap and easy but heat created reliability issues. Then damnit they turned the engine the wrong way barely room for a 4, solution turbos again the v6…… meanwhile materials and manufacturing become better, now turbos can last. By the glory of god they turned engines back the correct direction, material get better, room for higher boast, room on either side of then narrow engine. We have come full circle and with microchip we can do all sorts of magic with that on demand higher airflow. And in the smoothest configuration. Oh but the rumble of a American V8, it will live on. Until that outlaw ICE….. but yeah the 6 should be cheaper less parts less material, easier to build….. on demand displacement with the turbo means efficiency and power

 

[jam1]

Honest question ...... Would you pay more possibly a lot more. not trying to convince you, for a slower, more thirsty, heavier V8? Why more expensive you ask? Compliance, and certification. Likely would lose some HP along the way also.

I love mine but no way I am paying more to go slower than the i6. Now there are some that may, you might be one of them, I think it would take a lot of people, to convince that the money people, that to be true.

If there are a lot of people that are willing to pay more just for V8 it is easy for them to do low number of handbuilt modern V8s that won't hurt CAFE numbers or the capacity. So, write a nice note with positive ask...... don't included the take my ball and go home tone this has though.

They are still selling special models ..... they aren't even talking about the i6 yet, so there is NO WAY they talk about special V8 models. We know the STLA Large can handle it because it is in the GC. So, encouraging emails how you would like special SRT additions with a V8 why stop there take 2 i6 heads and make a v12

Triple T, you may have misunderstood my post. The last sentence is the key. It’s not that am trying to push my position as a customer so much as I am trying to let Dodge know that they should reconsider their decision and not give up on various I.C.E. power including V8’s. I made a call to Dodge in 2009 and the c/s person took my call and passed it directly to the people who made decisions on the LX platform. I was astonished to learn that later. The content of my call? Simple this: Stop making vehicles and allowing them to gain footing then canceling them. I asked Dodge to morph the Challenger and to adapt it as necessary. Dodge is doing just that and I love it. But, that being said, Dodge is leaving a gapping hole in it’s porfolio and I think walking away too soon in the V8 realm. Yes, not denying that I used my position as a building block for my post, but the sole reason I did that was an attenpt to gain Dodge’s attention for those of us who want more I.C.E. options. I don’t have an ego so it is not beyond me to ask for forgiveness and if that is what is needed if I offended someone then I apologize. But my request and concern still stands. I simply think Dodge is making a huge mistake with absolutely no affordable V8 option. Thank you all.

 

[AlexB]

Triple T, you may have misunderstood my post. The last sentence is the key. It’s not that am trying to push my position as a customer so much as I am trying to let Dodge know that they should reconsider their decision and not give up on various I.C.E. power including V8’s. I made a call to Dodge in 2009 and the c/s person took my call and passed it directly to the people who made decisions on the LX platform. I was astonished to learn that later. The content of my call? Simple this: Stop making vehicles and allowing them to gain footing then canceling them. I asked Dodge to morph the Challenger and to adapt it as necessary. Dodge is doing just that and I love it. But, that being said, Dodge is leaving a gapping hole in it’s porfolio and I think walking away too soon in the V8 realm. Yes, not denying that I used my position as a building block for my post, but the sole reason I did that was an attenpt to gain Dodge’s attention for those of us who want more I.C.E. options. I don’t have an ego so it is not beyond me to ask for forgiveness and if that is what is needed if I offended someone then I apologize. But my request and concern still stands. I simply think Dodge is making a huge mistake with absolutely no affordable V8 option. Thank you all.

Before June 2009 or after June 2009? Thanks.

 

[TripleT]

Triple T, you may have misunderstood my post. The last sentence is the key. It’s not that am trying to push my position as a customer so much as I am trying to let Dodge know that they should reconsider their decision and not give up on various I.C.E. power including V8’s. I made a call to Dodge in 2009 and the c/s person took my call and passed it directly to the people who made decisions on the LX platform. I was astonished to learn that later. The content of my call? Simple this: Stop making vehicles and allowing them to gain footing then canceling them. I asked Dodge to morph the Challenger and to adapt it as necessary. Dodge is doing just that and I love it. But, that being said, Dodge is leaving a gapping hole in it’s porfolio and I think walking away too soon in the V8 realm. Yes, not denying that I used my position as a building block for my post, but the sole reason I did that was an attenpt to gain Dodge’s attention for those of us who want more I.C.E. options. I don’t have an ego so it is not beyond me to ask for forgiveness and if that is what is needed if I offended someone then I apologize. But my request and concern still stands. I simply think Dodge is making a huge mistake with absolutely no affordable V8 option. Thank you all.

I not offended with you at all. I asking honestly.

You keep using the term affordable? Someone here said CAFE doesn’t change until 2024…. That the next model year. 2026 build plans are now individual state penalties are coming.

The affordable is being regulated out of the market just like 72’. To offer a V8 it will take revision and certification. Probably ground up.

So the question remains will you pay more to be slower, heavier, and less efficient simply to have to extra cylinders and a throaty exhaust.

I am not and I love my Hemis

It sort of like the PentaStar, what a great engine. One of the best for over a decade.

No way it’s a smart choice over the Hurricane 4, and is embarrassed by the PHEV.

It 100% likely that a Hurricane 4 4xe 2024 Challenger embarrasses a 2023 Eagle.

There will be more ice options than today. Just not the PentaStar and Eagle they are not competitive or compliant moving forward. This doesn’t diminish at all how good they were for a time.

 

[Mopar392]

I agree on the Pentastar and Eagle, but the 6.4 Apache still has potential.

Motortrend comparison of the 6.4 Grand Wagoneer vs the 510hp Hurricane Grand Wagoneer showed the differences in performance are not that far off. Some were for the Hurricane and some were for the 6.4.

Granted, cars might have a different tune for the HO Hurricane vs the SUV/truck application.

 

[TripleT]

I agree on the Pentastar and Eagle, but the 6.4 Apache still has potential.

Motortrend comparison of the 6.4 Grand Wagoneer vs the 510hp Hurricane Grand Wagoneer showed the differences in performance are not that far off. Some were for the Hurricane and some were for the 6.4.

Granted, cars might have a different tune for the HO Hurricane vs the SUV/truck application.

Yeah let’s see it in a application Not 5 ton behemoth truck…. But it is a bit backhanded to say it not that far off given it heaft a complexity.

And Damnit don’t take this from anything but cuz I love my 392. I’d pick it over a hellcat everyday. Makes such a nice balanced car. But the moaning and doomsday’ism seems very defeatist give how bad ass the new toy we’re getting. It’s not like Dodge is going around crushing everything older than 2024. Get a 2023 and garage it, but there is a new lighter more efficient, better handling, roomier, quicker car coming and all that some seem to care about is the lack of nostalgia model. For sure they could do what Ford is doing hand build a special addition just to say it exists. Who says they won’t, but the everyday buyer is getting something quicker at every level

 

[patfromigh]

For sure they could do what Ford is doing hand build a special addition just to say it exists.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I get the impression everything at Ford is a hand built special. Today it seems like Ford is doing this with their alleged volume models. I speak as someone who tried and failed to buy a Maverick hybrid, to be on a waiting list and get bounced off, and then find out the next model year is booked up. I thought the Lightning pickup was supposed to be a volume model, what a joke. The new PHEV Escape is now back to a single model choice and not a drive option. The price increase will neatly cover the federal tax rebate.

Stellantis will live or die on how well the operation can put volume models in the public's hands. The bargain basement stuff has come to an end, but the quality items such as the Hurricane must be carry the day. Ford seems to get away with vaporware, Stellantis doesn't have that option. Meeting CAFE requirements has to be done with electrification, which means pure battery electric and hybrids must be built and offered in volume. Only then can we see a few special models from Dodge.

I'm glad Jeep has made the new straight six work in the massive LWB Wagoneer. I am hoping Ram can do the same thing with some of their pickups. Battery electric pickups are a FAIL when it comes to towing. The Ram truck people in Auburn Hills remain tight lipped about their EV pickup's engineering details and how they will overcome the towing range challenge. I'm glad they are working on a PHEV version of the Hurricane.

 

[jam1]

Before June 2009 or after June 2009? Thanks.

Its been too long for me to remember the exact month but I recall chatting with another popular Mopar site owner that am sure everyone here is aware of and he then told me nothing was certain so I made calls to Dodge in 2009 and later.

 

[TripleT]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I get the impression everything at Ford is a hand built special. Today it seems like Ford is doing this with their alleged volume models. I speak as someone who tried and failed to buy a Maverick hybrid, to be on a waiting list and get bounced off, and then find out the next model year is booked up. I thought the Lightning pickup was supposed to be a volume model, what a joke. The new PHEV Escape is now back to a single model choice and not a drive option. The price increase will neatly cover the federal tax rebate.

Stellantis will live or die on how well the operation can put volume models in the public's hands. The bargain basement stuff has come to an end, but the quality items such as the Hurricane must be carry the day. Ford seems to get away with vaporware, Stellantis doesn't have that option. Meeting CAFE requirements has to be done with electrification, which means pure battery electric and hybrids must be built and offered in volume. Only then can we see a few special models from Dodge.

I'm glad Jeep has made the new straight six work in the massive LWB Wagoneer. I am hoping Ram can do the same thing with some of their pickups. Battery electric pickups are a FAIL when it comes to towing. The Ram truck people in Auburn Hills remain tight lipped about their EV pickup's engineering details and how they will overcome the towing range challenge. I'm glad they are working on a PHEV version of the Hurricane.

When i talk about hand built I am talking about low volume. As some are aware I cannot talk about Ford, but despite the hand built special addition Mustang for is All in on EVs in a way most here cannot comprehend. But there would be nothing stopping a special Halo addition of the Charger and Challenger with a hand built V8 other than it still being slower than the Banshee.

Pay attention to what Mopar is doing with EVs… while one of the advantages of them is the simplicity in drivetrains, mechanical ratios are still the best way to keep any motor in its most efficient mode. Look at the Jeep concepts, this is also a good solution for towing, tracking, and off road.

 

[jam1]

I not offended with you at all. I asking honestly.

You keep using the term affordable? Someone here said CAFE doesn’t change until 2024…. That the next model year. 2026 build plans are now individual state penalties are coming.

The affordable is being regulated out of the market just like 72’. To offer a V8 it will take revision and certification. Probably ground up.

So the question remains will you pay more to be slower, heavier, and less efficient simply to have to extra cylinders and a throaty exhaust.

I am not and I love my Hemis

It sort of like the PentaStar, what a great engine. One of the best for over a decade.

No way it’s a smart choice over the Hurricane 4, and is embarrassed by the PHEV.

It 100% likely that a Hurricane 4 4xe 2024 Challenger embarrasses a 2023 Eagle.

There will be more ice options than today. Just not the PentaStar and Eagle they are not competitive or compliant moving forward. This doesn’t diminish at all how good they were for a time.

I'll try to respond the best I can. To answer your question about the V-8 option should Dodge offer one, that's kinda difficult to answer for me. Reason is what I term as affordable may not be for someone else. But, think I get where you're coming from. Surely $40-$60k range would be attainable?
'What would someone be willing to pay for a slower vehicle just to own a V-8?' My answer would be yes at this time, but, for me, I'd need to ask myself some questions that would address some unknowns. 1. How expensive will fuel be in 2-3, 5, 10 years? 2. Where are we in 5, 10 etc. years on B.E.V.'s? For example, did battery technology just leap and leave me owning and investing in a vehicle for three to five years and there has been a break-through with better and different battery technology? Is there a better newer technology coming and we're just on the surface right now? Bottomline, for me is,: 1. Parts availability. I do not want to own something I cannot modifiy and/or get parts for say five to ten years from now. 2. Do not want to own something that is just beginning to crack technology and be the guenia pig. I understand that technology advances, but not talking about mild to medium upgrades, am talking about complete shifts into a different direction. I hear and read where there are so many different type of batteries it is mind-boggling and I sit back and wonder why is the current type batteries being utilized in vehicles when there seem to be better options?
It's like someone said, this is the direction we're taking and you'd better get on board with us and everyone seems to be jumping on it. It is becasue a group of investors got behind the current technology and money is behind the push? It makes me wonder if we're jumping and not doing due diligence and allowing time and progess to take place??
I'll consider B.E.V.'s when batteries are not $10k, $15k, etc. and very difficult if at all replaceable, can be charged in less than say around ten minutes, will take me on a mountainous trip without fear of running out of power and no charging station, will allow me to make my trip when having to sit in 80-90+ temps due to road construction, will take me out of a natural disaster waiting in a line exiting the area am in, etc. Hope am making sense.
Am please note that none of my comments are issued hatefully whatsoever, they are just questions and concerns I have.

Many thanks!

 

[Mopar392]

One of my friends has a degree in batteries and renewable energy.
One of the point she said, is that the current batteries used have a life span including degradation of 10-12 years and then it would need to be replaced. Currently your are only have a replacement from the OEM, which I understand it can change in the next decade or so and have a 3rd party replacement. But if you compare this to the IC engines, we know and we have seen engines older than 10 or 15 years running with minimum replacement of the scheduled maintenance parts, and even if the engine went bad you would have too many options of either a replacement of kind supplied by the OE or a 3rd party or you could modify and upgrade.

 

[TripleT]

I'll try to respond the best I can. To answer your question about the V-8 option should Dodge offer one, that's kinda difficult to answer for me. Reason is what I term as affordable may not be for someone else. But, think I get where you're coming from. Surely $40-$60k range would be attainable?
'What would someone be willing to pay for a slower vehicle just to own a V-8?' My answer would be yes at this time, but, for me, I'd need to ask myself some questions that would address some unknowns. 1. How expensive will fuel be in 2-3, 5, 10 years? 2. Where are we in 5, 10 etc. years on B.E.V.'s? For example, did battery technology just leap and leave me owning and investing in a vehicle for three to five years and there has been a break-through with better and different battery technology? Is there a better newer technology coming and we're just on the surface right now? Bottomline, for me is,: 1. Parts availability. I do not want to own something I cannot modifiy and/or get parts for say five to ten years from now. 2. Do not want to own something that is just beginning to crack technology and be the guenia pig. I understand that technology advances, but not talking about mild to medium upgrades, am talking about complete shifts into a different direction. I hear and read where there are so many different type of batteries it is mind-boggling and I sit back and wonder why is the current type batteries being utilized in vehicles when there seem to be better options?
It's like someone said, this is the direction we're taking and you'd better get on board with us and everyone seems to be jumping on it. It is becasue a group of investors got behind the current technology and money is behind the push? It makes me wonder if we're jumping and not doing due diligence and allowing time and progess to take place??
I'll consider B.E.V.'s when batteries are not $10k, $15k, etc. and very difficult if at all replaceable, can be charged in less than say around ten minutes, will take me on a mountainous trip without fear of running out of power and no charging station, will allow me to make my trip when having to sit in 80-90+ temps due to road construction, will take me out of a natural disaster waiting in a line exiting the area am in, etc. Hope am making sense.
Am please note that none of my comments are issued hatefully whatsoever, they are just questions and concerns I have.

Many thanks!

The I6 is better than all the V8s but the hellcat and I would not define Hellcats as affordable. SD I6 takes the same gas as the Eagle and the HD 91 Octane like the Apache.

I understand that both have tons of tune room. Especially more than Eagle and apache.

So the question remains what even without considering E assists of PHEV or BEV.
Are you Willing to pay more to be slower, heavier, more expensive, worse handling, more thirsty to have 2 more cylinders and throaty exhaust?

BEV is not a bandwagon it’s being mandated to half the US population and more than you can count countries around the world, it’s dumb AF but it’s the reality. The I6 is badass by itself. Right now there is nothing faster the Performance EVs

 

[Mopar392]

This is what pisses the hell out of a lot of us.
When the brand’s CEO keep repeating the next generation Charger and Challenger are BEV only.

Dodge Could Still Make Turbo Inline-Six Muscle Cars In Future

Dodge's upcoming STLA Large platform could still work with an ICE powertrain, with tantalizing possibilities.

www.thedrive.com