Charger Daytona delayed? Prototypes supposedly failing.

[CloversPlusCats]

Tony actually contributed to one of our articles this past week...

Jeep® Wagoneer S and Dodge Charger Daytona EVs Spotted Testing

While the electric vehicle (EV) revolution gained momentum over the past couple of years, automakers like Ford and General Motors (GM) have released several new EVs to the North American market. Coming late to the party, the Chrysler Group within Stellantis is now making significant strides...

moparinsiders.com

Sweet. At the same station it was there with the Wagoneer S and a Lyriq, and even with it's black color it rather stood out against the others. They just need to cook up a more full color palette sooner down the line.

Where's the 3L PHEV? BMW and Land Rover have done it - can't you guys at least what copy what they did?

I saw somewhere a Sixpack/Hurricane PHEV powertrain was on the cards for Dodge still, at least some point after the Banshee (the last officially announced trim stated to launch) showed up it would be. Gotta find the article.

 

[James.A]

I agree with a lot of his sentiments - I wish they kept a Hemi (attainably priced) - but come on, these are all first year models and gremlins in the first year are normal. He's mentioned electronic issue that I imagine would get worked out but no mechanical issues with the Hurricanes. Did he also claim to know of a Hemi surprise in the lead up to the Daytona reveal? I'm not sure he knows much and is just a mouth piece for disgruntled muscle car guys.

 

[CloversPlusCats]

I saw somewhere a Sixpack/Hurricane PHEV powertrain was on the cards for Dodge still, at least some point after the Banshee (the last officially announced trim stated to launch) showed up it would be. Gotta find the article.

Found it.

New Dodge Charger Plug-In Hybrid Could Arrive With Huge Performance Potential

The new Dodge muscle car will be offered with BEV and gas options - but a plug-in hybrid package could follow.

carbuzz.com

"Anything's possible," said Charger chief engineer Audrey Moore when asked if hybrid variants are in the works. In subsequent comments, she made it clear that this is an option her team is seriously considering.

It's mostly speculation from there though.

 

[TripleT]

Right now the 4xE powertrain already in the Jeeps will outperform the Existing R/T... The SO will also, and HO better than the Scat.... Adding the ZF and a battery even big enough for start and stops and 13 seconds would contend with Hell Cats.

A lot of goodwill with Dodge owners to have ICE performance available and let the Daytona deal with the Plaid on its own term.

 

[James.A]

Right now the 4xE powertrain already in the Jeeps will outperform the Existing R/T... The SO will also, and HO better than the Scat.... Adding the ZF and a battery even big enough for start and stops and 13 seconds would contend with Hell Cats.

A lot of goodwill with Dodge owners to have ICE performance available and let the Daytona deal with the Plaid on its own term.

Which 4xE? I've driven a Wrangler 4xE and it would not beat a 5.7 liter powered anything from what I recall. It was a nice powertrain but not that powerful.

 

[patfromigh]

This is what Car and Driver got from their test results.

Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4Xe C&D test 14.1 @ 96mph

Jeep Grand Cherokee 4Xe C&D test 13.9 @ 100mph

Both are much slower than the 2005 Jeep Hurricane concept.

Jeep Hurricane - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TripleT]

People side by side 4xE vs Eagle and beat it in JGC which is the only direct comparison. Wagoneer application the Hurricane is a full second faster in both performance metric.

 

[cygnus]

This is what Car and Driver got from their test results.

Jeep Wrangler Rubicon 4Xe C&D test 14.1 @ 96mph

Jeep Grand Cherokee 4Xe C&D test 13.9 @ 100mph

Both are much slower than the 2005 Jeep Hurricane concept.

Jeep Hurricane - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

5.7 stock -

0-60 / 5 seconds flat
0-100 / 11.7 seconds

No replacement for displacement.

All that crazy complexity and increase in cost, for zero benefit, from the same people that said 'trust the science' and shut down society for the better part of two years.

 

[AlexB]

5.7 stock -

0-60 / 5 seconds flat
0-100 / 11.7 seconds

No replacement for displacement.

All that crazy complexity and increase in cost, for zero benefit, from the same people that said 'trust the science' and shut down society for the better part of two years.

Actually 40% percent improvement for Stellantis in the Government rating. Environmentalist are made at the Admin:
(warning piece writen by an activist) https://www.reuters.com/business/au...-rules-go-soft-hybrid-trucks-suvs-2024-06-06/

 

[cygnus]

Actually 40% percent improvement for Stellantis in the Government rating. Environmentalist are made at the Admin:
(warning piece writen by an activist) https://www.reuters.com/business/au...-rules-go-soft-hybrid-trucks-suvs-2024-06-06/

What vehicles are you comparing when you're referencing a 40% improvement? Are you referring to something other than MPG?

A 3.6L ICE Wrangler has 285 HP, gets 23 MPG combined, and has 332 miles of total range.

Now here's what it gets tricky -

A 4xE Wrangler has 375 HP, but only gets 270ish miles of range - https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/actual-highway-mpg-range-for-4xe.70802/

Yes, you can turn off EV only mode so you're mostly banking the regen based on the commute and maybe squeeze out a bit more range. The EPA can say one thing, but the reality is that this a step backwards compared to ICE.

Current PHEV offerings from Jeep are underwhelming. In comparison, BMW X5 PHEV owners are getting 500 miles of total range for a full gas tank + battery (scroll down to the bottom of the thread) Extravagant claims for range for X5 xDrive50e??

 

[AlexB]

What vehicles are you comparing when you're referencing a 40% improvement? Are you referring to something other than MPG?

A 3.6L ICE Wrangler has 285 HP, gets 23 MPG combined, and has 332 miles of total range.

Now here's what it gets tricky -

A 4xE Wrangler has 375 HP, but only gets 270ish miles of range - https://www.jlwranglerforums.com/forum/threads/actual-highway-mpg-range-for-4xe.70802/

Yes, you can turn off EV only mode so you're mostly banking the regen based on the commute and maybe squeeze out a bit more range. The EPA can say one thing, but the reality is that this a step backwards compared to ICE.

Current PHEV offerings from Jeep are underwhelming. In comparison, BMW X5 PHEV owners are getting 500 miles of total range for a full gas tank + battery (scroll down to the bottom of the thread) Extravagant claims for range for X5 xDrive50e??

The improvement for Stellantis is for Biden Admin math( bureaucratic bull$):

""The EPA formula gives Stellantis a reduction of about 40% in estimated pollution for a plug-in Wrangler, compared to its emissions while using gasoline.".

 

[TripleT]

Someone doesn’t seem to know how PHEV works and needs to take a closer look at the sticker . I have gone up to 6 weeks without adding fuel./. Generally a half tank. On long trips 27 mpg at let just say well over the speed limit. Tank calculation well over 40 and as high as 53. And oh yeah pay for electric monthly bill went up less than 1/2 tank of fuel. One would be surprised how many trips or at least half trip’s covered at least the EV. The is JGC which compared to my Durango 18-22. This is significant…. So pleased were we we got another and it is averaging 75mpg…. That is not exaggerated

 

[cygnus]

Someone doesn’t seem to know how PHEV works and needs to take a closer look at the sticker . I have gone up to 6 weeks without adding fuel./. Generally a half tank. On long trips 27 mpg at let just say well over the speed limit. Tank calculation well over 40 and as high as 53. And oh yeah pay for electric monthly bill went up less than 1/2 tank of fuel. One would be surprised how many trips or at least half trip’s covered at least the EV. The is JGC which compared to my Durango 18-22. This is significant…. So pleased were we we got another and it is averaging 75mpg…. That is not exaggerated

Lol, and you’re charging every day and have a very short commute. Only something like 25% of PHEV owners bother charging, EVER. When I read that I was floored.

 

[patfromigh]

5.7 stock -

0-60 / 5 seconds flat
0-100 / 11.7 seconds

Source ?

C&D achieved 14.7 sec @ 94 mph in the quarter mile for the 5.7 GCL. The test results also show 0-60 of 6.2 seconds and 0-100 in 16.7 seconds.

Amazingly the 0-100 time you cite for the 5.7 is within a few tenths of the 475 hp 392 Grand Cherokee SRT in a different C&D test.

 

[TripleT]

yeah not sure where those came from pretty close to Scat times maybe a prepped track or special tires or a bit of tuning. Stock side by side the 4Xe in the closes we have to a true comparison WL JGC the package outperforms the Eagle.... Remember I had both a scat and a 4xe at the same time and they felt similarly quick.

It so odd people are so partisan about this issue, and I get it because GOV has interfered with the marketplace .... I am sadly EX Apache owner; I do miss the musical note of probably the best sounding powerplant ever sold. But for power delivery and efficiency I am sold. Being able to fill up in your garage for most trips is EXTREMELY convenient. To the point my wife gets annoyed at me if I forget to plug in.

 

[CloversPlusCats]

2 weeks old spy shot, but whatever at this point, I'd say. Car isn't setting foot in a CDJR for a while with all going on.
https://www.reddit.com/r/spotted/comments/1d65qpy

 

[TripleT]

Is your contention that there is something unique about flushing out issue before the product is released? This is literally what this time is used for.

With all that is going on. hahahahaha Ahhh man funny.

 

[WXman]

Here's the bottom line. The guy earlier in this thread who said it's all about marketing is 100% correct. I go to some of the largest car shows in the Ohio Valley region of the country. When I'm there, what I see is people age 20 through age 70 all along the streets, parking lots, etc. with their hoods up talking about their engines, modifications, builds, etc. People of all ages enjoying the hobby. And the thing that makes it all work is that with ICE, and so many variations of ICE, no two cars are identical. That's what keeps it interesting. That's where the hobby comes into the equation...guys building their cars to be what they want, or to try and be faster than the next guy.

When I ponder a world where every car is an electric motor tied to a battery pack it makes me sick. I cannot imagine a group of 500 EV cars at a car show with their hoods up so that everybody walking by can see a "trunk" or at best a wiring harness. It's never going to work. At that point the entire point is lost. There is no hobby in that. No fun in that. It would destroy the sports/muscle car segment.......

......which is EXACTLY why Ford has publicly stated that as long as there's a Mustang, there will be a V8 engine under the hood. Their CEO is wise enough to know that in THIS segment, there is no place for an EV.

So yes, the big problem Dodge has now is marketing. They've got two powertrains in the new car, and nobody wants either.

And I do not buy the argument "Dodge had no choice". There's always a choice. GM sells new V8s and is investing money in additional new V8s in the coming years. Ford sells new V8s. Dodge could have spent the R&D money on bringing the Hemi lineup into current emissions standards and then they wouldn't have killed their company. But mark my words, after the early adopters get their new Chargers next year, that car is done. It won't sell well enough to even justify keeping around past the mid-cycle refresh.

Dodge is done. Stick a fork in them. And I hope that when Jeep is sold off, the new owner cares enough about it to do it justice.

 

[TripleT]

Sure they had a choice make a less powerful engine then the new powerplant and send money to Tesla and to the Fed.

GM sells nearly NO V8 compared to it EVs and its EV outside the Corvette that has the odd sounding flat plane engine. And fully committed to full integration by 35'

They made a massive investment in a new ICE engine that is more powerful than the pervious and people are losing their minds because it doesn't say Hemi on the plastic cover.

That is just IGNORANT... YES IGNORANT... if DODGE fans are that IGNORANT they don't deserve a brand. If that only way it survives is like Ford with $138K special addition V8 then shame on them. Literally they can do that at any time, that engine was retired at Maserati because it gets it ass handed to it by the Hurricane. but but but it a V8 ... V8 is the only solution... they may eventually give in to that nonsense, but it is nonsense. And this is coming from a guy who loved his 392, and still do ... but would never pay more to be embarrassed by new Hurricane.

BMW, Nissan, and Infiniti have plenty of tuners with their Hoods up, Dodge fans can do the same with an engine that won't tick and won't pop one of it heads all the time. Demon 170 are still doing this.

The only solution is an old solution then YES, the brand deserves to die, Because I remember the 80s and early 90s and Mopar and Dodge had a entire following around tuned 2.2s

RAM does JUST FINE with a Turbo inline 6, with DI against Ford and GM V8s so don't pull this V8 is the only solution BS it hasn't been ever that way at RAM and people tune that crap out of them.

Smooth, more powerful, more efficient, and more durable..... but but but it not a V8 .... lord help us... .You all are making the argument that the Dodge buyer is so simple that French might as well shut it down. GOOD job.

Here is an idea, start selling the new solution instead of complaining about it.

 

[AlexB]

Here's the bottom line. The guy earlier in this thread who said it's all about marketing is 100% correct. I go to some of the largest car shows in the Ohio Valley region of the country. When I'm there, what I see is people age 20 through age 70 all along the streets, parking lots, etc. with their hoods up talking about their engines, modifications, builds, etc. People of all ages enjoying the hobby. And the thing that makes it all work is that with ICE, and so many variations of ICE, no two cars are identical. That's what keeps it interesting. That's where the hobby comes into the equation...guys building their cars to be what they want, or to try and be faster than the next guy.

When I ponder a world where every car is an electric motor tied to a battery pack it makes me sick. I cannot imagine a group of 500 EV cars at a car show with their hoods up so that everybody walking by can see a "trunk" or at best a wiring harness. It's never going to work. At that point the entire point is lost. There is no hobby in that. No fun in that. It would destroy the sports/muscle car segment.......

......which is EXACTLY why Ford has publicly stated that as long as there's a Mustang, there will be a V8 engine under the hood. Their CEO is wise enough to know that in THIS segment, there is no place for an EV.

So yes, the big problem Dodge has now is marketing. They've got two powertrains in the new car, and nobody wants either.

And I do not buy the argument "Dodge had no choice". There's always a choice. GM sells new V8s and is investing money in additional new V8s in the coming years. Ford sells new V8s. Dodge could have spent the R&D money on bringing the Hemi lineup into current emissions standards and then they wouldn't have killed their company. But mark my words, after the early adopters get their new Chargers next year, that car is done. It won't sell well enough to even justify keeping around past the mid-cycle refresh.

Dodge is done. Stick a fork in them. And I hope that when Jeep is sold off, the new owner cares enough about it to do it justice.

If think Jeep is being sold off,then you simply don't know what the heck you are typing about, nor you don't get the structure of Stellantis.
Your emotion of falsehoods at Charger ICE coming Fall 2025 cloud your understanding of the business & numbers.