Charger Daytona delayed? Prototypes supposedly failing.

[CloversPlusCats]

Is your contention that there is something unique about flushing out issue before the product is released? This is literally what this time is used for.

With all that is going on. hahahahaha Ahhh man funny.

Hopefully they flush the problems out better than GM has done.

Here's the bottom line. The guy earlier in this thread who said it's all about marketing is 100% correct. I go to some of the largest car shows in the Ohio Valley region of the country. When I'm there, what I see is people age 20 through age 70 all along the streets, parking lots, etc. with their hoods up talking about their engines, modifications, builds, etc. People of all ages enjoying the hobby. And the thing that makes it all work is that with ICE, and so many variations of ICE, no two cars are identical. That's what keeps it interesting. That's where the hobby comes into the equation...guys building their cars to be what they want, or to try and be faster than the next guy.

When I ponder a world where every car is an electric motor tied to a battery pack it makes me sick. I cannot imagine a group of 500 EV cars at a car show with their hoods up so that everybody walking by can see a "trunk" or at best a wiring harness. It's never going to work. At that point the entire point is lost. There is no hobby in that. No fun in that. It would destroy the sports/muscle car segment.......

......which is EXACTLY why Ford has publicly stated that as long as there's a Mustang, there will be a V8 engine under the hood. Their CEO is wise enough to know that in THIS segment, there is no place for an EV.

So yes, the big problem Dodge has now is marketing. They've got two powertrains in the new car, and nobody wants either.

And I do not buy the argument "Dodge had no choice". There's always a choice. GM sells new V8s and is investing money in additional new V8s in the coming years. Ford sells new V8s. Dodge could have spent the R&D money on bringing the Hemi lineup into current emissions standards and then they wouldn't have killed their company. But mark my words, after the early adopters get their new Chargers next year, that car is done. It won't sell well enough to even justify keeping around past the mid-cycle refresh.

Dodge is done. Stick a fork in them. And I hope that when Jeep is sold off, the new owner cares enough about it to do it justice.

People would probably actually give away their arm and leg if it meant another V8, but I really do think "no one wants an I6" is massive stretch. After the marketing hurdle (which I think Dodge will probably screw up for almost sure), it's gonna be a matter of if people will pay Stellantis money for an I6 powered full size coupe or if the pricing guys snaps out of it.

 

[TripleT]

There is a rule about not marketing what is not for sale, and while you still have vehicles to sell,

So, we don't know what they will do... I think there is real danger that focus on the EV will hurt the marketing on Hurricane models.

I think if they had a Crystal ball 3 years ago the 6 would have been a priority over the EV but we are all so clever in hindsight.

To me the biggest issue is not what is offered but having such a large gap between the Brampton to Windsor implementation but that might be all on Union Negotiations.

Imagine how impossible it is to navigate regulatory realities, most made be people in Limos, private planes, and Helicopters, market realities, labor issues, and capacity transitions.

Then you come up with awesome solution that satisfies most of them Smoother, more power, more torque, more efficient, and more durable.... and your "fan" base won't adopt because it doesn't have Hemi on the plastic cover. Maddening.

 

[WXman]

Sure they had a choice make a less powerful engine then the new powerplant and send money to Tesla and to the Fed.

GM sells nearly NO V8 compared to it EVs and its EV outside the Corvette that has the odd sounding flat plane engine. And fully committed to full integration by 35'

They made a massive investment in a new ICE engine that is more powerful than the pervious and people are losing their minds because it doesn't say Hemi on the plastic cover.

That is just IGNORANT... YES IGNORANT... if DODGE fans are that IGNORANT they don't deserve a brand. If that only way it survives is like Ford with $138K special addition V8 then shame on them. Literally they can do that at any time, that engine was retired at Maserati because it gets it ass handed to it by the Hurricane. but but but it a V8 ... V8 is the only solution... they may eventually give in to that nonsense, but it is nonsense. And this is coming from a guy who loved his 392, and still do ... but would never pay more to be embarrassed by new Hurricane.

BMW, Nissan, and Infiniti have plenty of tuners with their Hoods up, Dodge fans can do the same with an engine that won't tick and won't pop one of it heads all the time. Demon 170 are still doing this.

The only solution is an old solution then YES, the brand deserves to die, Because I remember the 80s and early 90s and Mopar and Dodge had a entire following around tuned 2.2s

RAM does JUST FINE with a Turbo inline 6, with DI against Ford and GM V8s so don't pull this V8 is the only solution BS it hasn't been ever that way at RAM and people tune that crap out of them.

Smooth, more powerful, more efficient, and more durable..... but but but it not a V8 .... lord help us... .You all are making the argument that the Dodge buyer is so simple that French might as well shut it down. GOOD job.

Here is an idea, start selling the new solution instead of complaining about it.

Absolutely not true.

GM sells the #2 most purchased vehicle in the nation which is the full size pickup and a HUGE majority of those have V8 engines. In addition to that they sell Tahoe which is the #1 full size SUV in America....mostly with V8s. They sell Corvettes with cross-plane and without cross-plane V8s. They sold Camaro with V8s until just this year. They sell almost NO electric vehicles, and their CEO stated publicly last year that the road to full
electrification was “not going to be profitable”.

As far as Ram goes… I guess you haven’t noticed that last year they were the ONLY company selling trucks in the U.S. that showed losses year over year? And you haven’t noticed that for the first quarter of this year they showed the largest sales losses of any brand? And what about the Dodge cars that WERE #1 in the segment until they officially announced no more V8s and now dealers are begging to give them away at $20k off sticker? Did you notice that? How did they go from #2 in trucks and winning Truck of the Year in consecutive years to what we see today? And how did the most popular muscle car in the segment immediately fall off a cliff? Well, it's because American buyers care about what's under the hood.

You can try and act like the loss of the V8 engine is not a big deal, but you are simply not correct and the sales numbers are already proving it and will continue to prove it as Ford and GM go back to dominating Ram/Dodge like it’s the 1980s all over again.

 

[TripleT]

Absolutely not true.

GM sells the #2 most purchased vehicle in the nation which is the full size pickup and a HUGE majority of those have V8 engines. In addition to that they sell Tahoe which is the #1 full size SUV in America....mostly with V8s. They sell Corvettes with cross-plane and without cross-plane V8s. They sold Camaro with V8s until just this year. They sell almost NO electric vehicles, and their CEO stated publicly last year that the road to full
electrification was “not going to be profitable”.

As far as Ram goes… I guess you haven’t noticed that last year they were the ONLY company selling trucks in the U.S. that showed losses year over year? And you haven’t noticed that for the first quarter of this year they showed the largest sales losses of any brand? And what about the Dodge cars that WERE #1 in the segment until they officially announced no more V8s and now dealers are begging to give them away at $20k off sticker? Did you notice that? How did they go from #2 in trucks and winning Truck of the Year in consecutive years to what we see today? And how did the most popular muscle car in the segment immediately fall off a cliff? Well, it's because American buyers care about what's under the hood.

You can try and act like the loss of the V8 engine is not a big deal, but you are simply not correct and the sales numbers are already proving it and will continue to prove it as Ford and GM go back to dominating Ram/Dodge like it’s the 1980s all over again.

Really you have made NO valid point ...... first off they still sold V8 last, sales are based capacity. Ford V8 historically are crap. They sell mostly Turbo engines in 150s.

While GM sells a lot of V8 because they make a lot of vehicles but they sell a lot of other low displacement and EVs when while CDJR sell NONE. They are focused on none maybe like Ford special additions.

RAM Cummin is universally acknowledged as a better vehicle for those who tow for a living so the entire V8 argument falls apart.

What you keep saying CDJR buyers too DUMB to understand the Hurricane is a better powerplant because the only way to make power is with a V8 despite RAM entire HD history is straight6 DI Turbo engines.

Go ahead a point to volume again when you know darn well that is because Classic was discontinued, so based on capacity.

You might be right Dodge buyers may be so unsophisticated to buy based on a plastic cover... if true it is damn sad and close it down. Because they built a superior powerplant in every way. Which seems to be continued to ignored.

 

[AlexB]

Absolutely not true.

GM sells the #2 most purchased vehicle in the nation which is the full size pickup and a HUGE majority of those have V8 engines. In addition to that they sell Tahoe which is the #1 full size SUV in America....mostly with V8s. They sell Corvettes with cross-plane and without cross-plane V8s. They sold Camaro with V8s until just this year. They sell almost NO electric vehicles, and their CEO stated publicly last year that the road to full
electrification was “not going to be profitable”.

As far as Ram goes… I guess you haven’t noticed that last year they were the ONLY company selling trucks in the U.S. that showed losses year over year? And you haven’t noticed that for the first quarter of this year they showed the largest sales losses of any brand? And what about the Dodge cars that WERE #1 in the segment until they officially announced no more V8s and now dealers are begging to give them away at $20k off sticker? Did you notice that? How did they go from #2 in trucks and winning Truck of the Year in consecutive years to what we see today? And how did the most popular muscle car in the segment immediately fall off a cliff? Well, it's because American buyers care about what's under the hood.

You can try and act like the loss of the V8 engine is not a big deal, but you are simply not correct and the sales numbers are already proving it and will continue to prove it as Ford and GM go back to dominating Ram/Dodge like it’s the 1980s all over again.

You left out Mary Barra spent billions in EV's, Stellantis is simply offering a couple in U.S, and+others are getting your shorts tied up in knots.
Camaro was a flop.
Stellantis didn't make a 2024 Challenger.

In Addition, GM significantly makes less money than Stellantis in North America.

 

[WXman]

You left out Mary Barra spent billions in EV's, Stellantis is simply offering a couple in U.S, and+others are getting your shorts tied up in knots.
Camaro was a flop.
Stellantis didn't make a 2024 Challenger.

In Addition, GM significantly makes less money than Stellantis in North America.

Never said they made a 2024 Challenger. I said Challenger/Charger stopped selling immediately when Stellantis officially said "no more V8s". Which, is true and is evidenced by the $20k off sticker promotions we're seeing as they try and unload them.

GM gets outsold by Stellantis in NA? Are you serious? I don't know what you guys are drinking, but you should share. GM SMOKED Stellantis in sales last year. GM even outsold Toyota here last year despite Toyota being a world leader.

 

[TripleT]

Wow maybe English isn't your first language.

They are still selling Chargers and Challengers with V8s in them.... Haven't stopped. They stopped building them. That is a big difference. Still selling Ram with V8s also not selling many V8 Deisel trucks NEVER HAVE. Having tried to find Charger replacement. They are unloading anything find one a sticker buy it. Inventory needs to last an entire year.

Someone has a profound misunderstanding of the nature of Capacity, Volume, Sales Volume and Revenue. Let me try this to help to understand.

"In Addition, GM significantly makes less money than Stellantis in North America."

Dixie Cups gets outsold by GM in NA? Are you serious? I don't know what you guys are drinking, but you should share. Dixie Cup SMOKED GM in sales last year. Dixie Cup even outsold Toyota here last year despite Toyota being a world leader.

Equating Capacity and Volume to success and revenue is a profound error and is how Chrysler always seemed to be on the verge of bankruptcy. It is as impossible CDJR to outsell GM and Ford even if it was at a loss, as it would be for GM to outsell Dixie Cup. GM and Ford would have to idle a significant amount of capacity while absorbing the loss related to fixed cost for it to even be possible to compare based on volume.

We all do understand that not only does GM and Ford have WAY more capacity but also FCA is the midst of a Capacity shuffle that has as much of it capacity idle while that capacity is being converted an unprecedented number of new models??? DO WE?

Honestly this doesn't have to be contentious we can have a civil discussion.....

But if ones POINT, they announced the End of the V8 and GM kicked their ass in volume is your evidence of the error... the false correlation is so profound it hard to have that discussion.

 

[AlexB]

Wow maybe English isn't your first language.

They are still selling Chargers and Challengers with V8s in them.... Haven't stopped. They stopped building them. That is a big difference. Still selling Ram with V8s also not selling many V8 Deisel trucks NEVER HAVE. Having tried to find Charger replacement. They are unloading anything find one a sticker buy it. Inventory needs to last an entire year.

Someone has a profound misunderstanding of the nature of Capacity, Volume, Sales Volume and Revenue. Let me try this to help to understand.

"In Addition, GM significantly makes less money than Stellantis in North America."

Dixie Cups gets outsold by GM in NA? Are you serious? I don't know what you guys are drinking, but you should share. Dixie Cup SMOKED GM in sales last year. Dixie Cup even outsold Toyota here last year despite Toyota being a world leader.

Equating Capacity and Volume to success and revenue is a profound error and is how Chrysler always seemed to be on the verge of bankruptcy. It is as impossible CDJR to outsell GM and Ford even if it was at a loss, as it would be for GM to outsell Dixie Cup. GM and Ford would have to idle a significant amount of capacity while absorbing the loss related to fixed cost for it to even be possible to compare based on volume.

We all do understand that not only does GM and Ford have WAY more capacity but also FCA is the midst of a Capacity shuffle that has as much of it capacity idle while that capacity is being converted an unprecedented number of new models??? DO WE?

Honestly this doesn't have to be contentious we can have a civil discussion.....

But if ones POINT, they announced the End of the V8 and GM kicked their ass in volume is your evidence of the error... the false correlation is so profound it hard to have that discussion.

Some folks confused & mix about a particular dealership short term mindset used to the volume game vs realizing they won't have product for a year.

In an effort to keep a constructive thread, I went back to my earnings post (both Stellantis & GM are included):
Thread 'North America(the former ''Chrysler Business''):14,327 billion (U$D)pre-tax & interest profit for 2023,15.4% margin'
North America(the former ''Chrysler Business''):14,327 billion (U$D)pre-tax & interest profit for 2023,15.4% margin

 

[TripleT]

Some folks confused & mix about a particular dealership short term mindset used to the volume game vs realizing they won't have product for a year.

In an effort to keep a constructive thread, I went back to my earnings post (both Stellantis & GM are included):
Thread 'North America(the former ''Chrysler Business''):14,327 billion (U$D)pre-tax & interest profit for 2023,15.4% margin'
North America(the former ''Chrysler Business''):14,327 billion (U$D)pre-tax & interest profit for 2023,15.4% margin

Why the Dixie Cup example is applicable ....

 

[TripleT]

Ford Asks Some Mustang V8 Owners To Swap Engine Head Or Risk Warranty | Carscoops

The Blue Oval warns that those Mustang owners who don't submit could end up outside of warranty coverage if damage happens

www.carscoops.com

 

[AlexB]

Why the Dixie Cup example is applicable ....

Those upset about V8 will get even more crying once RAM, Silverado , Sierra all become triplets because of a new administration that lax on Anti-Trust.

 

[bill burke]

Just my opinion, yes Dodge has made a risky decision, but not fatal, if they can connect on a middle ground between loyal owners and a new market that can relate to the new stuff. I believe that repricing and repositioning the Hornet and the Charger Six Pack could keep the brand alive, but more and better product is desperately needed. Can Stellantis pull this off along with the Chrysler recreation, almost impossible with the brands current leadership, but let’s hope.
As a die heart Mopar man, I’m struggling with a best case scenario of these awful and self inflicted wounds. Thank God for old cars for old guys. The more I think about things the worse it gets. What a mess.

 

[AlexB]

Just my opinion, yes Dodge has made a risky decision, but not fatal, if they can connect on a middle ground between loyal owners and a new market that can relate to the new stuff. I believe that repricing and repositioning the Hornet and the Charger Six Pack could keep the brand alive, but more and better product is desperately needed. Can Stellantis pull this off along with the Chrysler recreation, almost impossible with the brands current leadership, but let’s hope.
As a die heart Mopar man, I’m struggling with a best case scenario of these awful and self inflicted wounds. Thank God for old cars for old guys. The more I think about things the worse it gets. What a mess.

"Charger Six Pack could keep the brand alive, but more and better product is desperately needed"
"The more I think about things the worse it gets"


Stellantis haven't sold a single version of the new Charger, but you complaining about " better" for a product you never drove before.

 

[TripleT]

Literally how is it a self-inflicted wound if it Regulatorily Inflicted wound?

And if doesn't seem to me these magically loyal Mopar fans give a fly flick about "better" they want the same stuff forever, which is dang near the case for the Charger.

The new Powerplant is "better" in every way except exhaust note (and we been over this the new Coyote doesn't sound good, either does the corvette... 392 may have been the best sounding stock package ever made)

More Power, More Torque, More Efficient, Lighter, More Durable (based on Configuration and testing), Smoother, More Balance, More Potential..... I don't know how one defines better, but bench marking the incumbent solution and then beating it in every Metric is pretty definitional. There is some sweet-sounding BMW and Infiniti tunes so it not out of the question, hell Madness makes the 1.3T sound awesome waiting for the release. But But the HellCat... We already know the engine has the same potential.... Helliphant and 170 we know have issues... Like the Ford....as far a production durability

What one means to say is they are married to a single solution Henrys V8 configuration, and no matter how much better it is, only the old solution is satisfactory. That is sad way to go through life. There was a time when Straight engines were the shizzle the V8 was a way for Ford to deal with packing issues. The Hurricane with help from Ford tech has overcome the packaging issue in a different way.

ON the Hornet.... How much room does one think there is in an Italian built imported and shipped vehicle. Shame on them for not foreseeing all the currency and shipping issue related to World events. The Hornet is an interim solution to a gap in the marketplace, the biggest issue has been marketing where they have failed to explain it value as a PHEV ... I still haven't seen commercial explaining that while in Europe is sister car is winning awards and is well received.

 

[scatpack_69]

How in the hell can someone claim GM sells almost no V8’s, and then continues on to call someone else ignorant? What warped reality are we living in?

Fact: GM sells more V8’s than probably anyone, and more than their small engines. I mean they just aren’t selling a ton of small four cylinder cars anymore, and EV is almost nil. Bulk of pickups (last I checked, been a year or so, Chevy and GMC 1500 combined sell more that F150…..) are indeed powered by V8’s.

 

[scatpack_69]

Oh and, so far the Hurricane has shown to be less fuel efficient than other manufacturers’ V8 pickups, in multiple tests. Yep, great move. And no damn oil dipstick either! Haha

 

[Mastertech63]

How in the hell can someone claim GM sells almost no V8’s, and then continues on to call someone else ignorant? What warped reality are we living in?

Fact: GM sells more V8’s than probably anyone, and more than their small engines. I mean they just aren’t selling a ton of small four cylinder cars anymore, and EV is almost nil. Bulk of pickups (last I checked, been a year or so, Chevy and GMC 1500 combined sell more that F150…..) are indeed powered by V8’s.

What's the break-down of numbers on the GM 1500 sales. How many are 4 cylinders?

 

[AlexB]

What's the break-down of numbers on the GM 1500 sales. How many are 4 cylinders?

He trying bait people over Stellantis making more money than GM in North America & Global.

 

[Mastertech63]

Oh and, so far the Hurricane has shown to be less fuel efficient than other manufacturers’ V8 pickups, in multiple tests. Yep, great move. And no damn oil dipstick either! Haha

Don't you know that the "great" European make BMW doesn't include oil dipsticks! And how many transmissions out there from ALL manufactures don't have dipsticks. Your point is pointless.

 

[TripleT]

I like a dipstick but in todays world is worthless, the sensor level is more sensiitive and shows up on the screen at 1/4 lower, Ah so the more powerful Hurricane can use more fuel if you punch it than a Ford and GM no kidding.

they should have made it less powerful to save fuel.