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Stellantis Electric Vehicle Day on July 8, 1 hour before Wall Street open

pumadog said:
RAM might lead the commercial brands direction from the US, but please not lead the engineering of euro-centric products from Fiorino up to the Ducato. Don't fck up the company's most successful (in EU market share) product. About RAM as the brand: It's pretty unknown in Europe, why would a market leader though away all its reputation? Different Badges aren't that expensive. If they had to unify, why not rather FIAT?

There must have been a reason why Ducato and Daily were separate products for decades, even when both were und Fiat Spa. I think the daily is heavier/bigger and even RWD (?)

Interesting story about brand change from FIAT (and others) to IVECO at the German Wiki:
Click to expand...

I don't think changing the name from Fiat Professional to RAM will cause it to lose customers.

I do agree that not every product should be micromanaged from North America. Doesn't make any sense to do that, and I seriously doubt they would.

As for the Promaster and Daily, I understand why they've been on different platforms until now, but with electrification, I don't know that it would make sense anymore. I have no idea, I'm just guessing. Front wheel drive and rear wheel drive and light vs heavy duty etc, is all kinda moot.

You're basically talking about large boxes with batteries in the floor and electric motors at either or both ends. Maybe some sort of Hydrogen fuel cell power. In any event, I'd think it would behoove Iveco to get on board with the scale STLA can offer.

I'm also wondering if there could be a convergence between Iveco and Ram more broadly. I know one sells Light commercial vehicles and the other Medium to Heavy, but the Promaster and Daily is one place they might be able to work together to mutual benefit.

I'm also bringing this up because I remember reading that the planned sale of Iveco seemed to be put off, so I wonder they have reconsidered their entire future planning.

Maybe this could one day lead to Iveco/Ram Medium duty 6500-7500 trucks being offered here in the US, which would be great to grow the brand to further take on Ford.

Maybe they could be "collaborations" instead of mergers, since they don't really belong in the same corporate group, especially since they just de-merged the groups a few years back.
 
Putting all the LCVs under the Ram brand name would go counter to the Stellantis philosophy of letting each brand have its own vehicle from a platform. Right now the Stellantis LCV lineup is chaotic. Fiat has the TOFAS built Fiorino and Doblo, while the Talento is built by Renault. Only the Ducato shares a platform with the other Stellantis brands. The Latin American Fiat/Ram LCVs use Fiat platforms and the original PSA brands in Latin America have now moved to the latest Euro Stellantis platform. In some markets the Fiat (Professional) brand is popular, while the Ram brand is has gained favor elsewhere. The PSA brands also are favorites in different markets as well.

I don't know what the future of the Stellantis LCV platform will be. The current platform is designed for alternate power, and allows for CNG tanks or battery placement in the floor. The Stellantis brands list battery electric options for their large vans. The Ram ProMaster is a popular base for battery electric conversions in North America because of its design.

Before Opel was absorbed by PSA they sold badge engineered LCVs from Renault in the higher GVW ranges. Perhaps Iveco, Ram and Opel could collaborate on a future rear drive based design to replace the Daily and offer higher GVW rear drive LCVs for Opel and Ram. The Iveco Daily has offered a BE option for quite awhile now, but it hasn't been a big seller. I think something like the rear drive based Daily with the Jeep Wrangler's GME 4 cylinder PHEV powertrain would be a winner in the commercial vehicle market.
 
Ryan said:
PSA:

MULTIPLE FORUM ACCOUNTS PER PERSON ARE NOT ALLOWED!

Do not create a separate account so you can post a statement of agreement with something you posted on another account, especially when the entire conversation is off-topic. It's weird and misleading to pretend to be someone else so you can agree with something you said.
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That is a thing?
 
The FIAT brand is very well regarded for LCVs in Europe, while RAM is unknown. Replacing that brand with RAM would bring no positives, and quite a bit of baggage. Stellantis will continue to sell Opel, FIAT, Citroën and Peugeot van models in Europe. Euro LCVs are all about light unladen weights and high fuel efficiency: those who even know what RAM is would not associate the brand with those attributes.

What will possibly happen is a rationalisation of the various joint-ventures so that all work is now in-house. FIAT had a long history of collaborating on commercial vans: the Ducato is also sold under various PSA brandnames; the Doblò had an Opel twin (until PSA bought Opel and moved it onto their own platform), and FIAT’s midsize van, Scudo, was a shared product with PSA until
FIAT moved it onto a Renault-Nissan JV and renamed it “Talento”*, so in a way some of those recent divorces will be undone by Stellantis.

The LCV models are all unibody vehicles, not body-on-frame, so they will be on one of the unibody platforms, not STLA Frame.

@pumadog Ducato and Daily overlap, but the IVECO van can handle heavier payloads.
Daily is rear-wheel drive. The entry model is 3.5 tonne gross vehicle weight (GVW), but the range continues up to a 7.0 tonne GVW rigid truck.
Ducato is front-wheel drive, starts at 3.0 tonne GVW and ends at 4.25 tonnes GVW in the Ducato Maxi variant.

__
* all of the FIAT vans are named after historic coins: Doblò (doubloon), Fiorino (florin) Scudo (escudo), Talento (talent), Ducato (ducat).
 
Ryan said:
PSA:

MULTIPLE FORUM ACCOUNTS PER PERSON ARE NOT ALLOWED!

Do not create a separate account so you can post a statement of agreement with something you posted on another account, especially when the entire conversation is off-topic. It's weird and misleading to pretend to be someone else so you can agree with something you said.
Click to expand...
Pupa mediis soccus delenda est!
 
patfromigh said:
Putting all the LCVs under the Ram brand name would go counter to the Stellantis philosophy of letting each brand have its own vehicle from a platform. Right now the Stellantis LCV lineup is chaotic. Fiat has the TOFAS built Fiorino and Doblo, while the Talento is built by Renault. Only the Ducato shares a platform with the other Stellantis brands. The Latin American Fiat/Ram LCVs use Fiat platforms and the original PSA brands in Latin America have now moved to the latest Euro Stellantis platform. In some markets the Fiat (Professional) brand is popular, while the Ram brand is has gained favor elsewhere. The PSA brands also are favorites in different markets as well.

I don't know what the future of the Stellantis LCV platform will be. The current platform is designed for alternate power, and allows for CNG tanks or battery placement in the floor. The Stellantis brands list battery electric options for their large vans. The Ram ProMaster is a popular base for battery electric conversions in North America because of its design.

Before Opel was absorbed by PSA they sold badge engineered LCVs from Renault in the higher GVW ranges. Perhaps Iveco, Ram and Opel could collaborate on a future rear drive based design to replace the Daily and offer higher GVW rear drive LCVs for Opel and Ram. The Iveco Daily has offered a BE option for quite awhile now, but it hasn't been a big seller. I think something like the rear drive based Daily with the Jeep Wrangler's GME 4 cylinder PHEV powertrain would be a winner in the commercial vehicle market.
Click to expand...
KrisW said:
The FIAT brand is very well regarded for LCVs in Europe, while RAM is unknown. Replacing that brand with RAM would bring no positives, and quite a bit of baggage. Stellantis will continue to sell Opel, FIAT, Citroën and Peugeot van models in Europe. Euro LCVs are all about light unladen weights and high fuel efficiency: those who even know what RAM is would not associate the brand with those attributes.

What will possibly happen is a rationalisation of the various joint-ventures so that all work is now in-house. FIAT had a long history of collaborating on commercial vans: the Ducato is also sold under various PSA brandnames; the Doblò had an Opel twin (until PSA bought Opel and moved it onto their own platform), and FIAT’s midsize van, Scudo, was a shared product with PSA until
FIAT moved it onto a Renault-Nissan JV and renamed it “Talento”*, so in a way some of those recent divorces will be undone by Stellantis.

The LCV models are all unibody vehicles, not body-on-frame, so they will be on one of the unibody platforms, not STLA Frame.

@pumadog Ducato and Daily overlap, but the IVECO van can handle heavier payloads.
Daily is rear-wheel drive. The entry model is 3.5 tonne gross vehicle weight (GVW), but the range continues up to a 7.0 tonne GVW rigid truck.
Ducato is front-wheel drive, starts at 3.0 tonne GVW and ends at 4.25 tonnes GVW in the Ducato Maxi variant.

__
* all of the FIAT vans are named after historic coins: Doblò (doubloon), Fiorino (florin) Scudo (escudo), Talento (talent), Ducato (ducat).
Click to expand...
RAM wouldn’t just be replace Fiat professional, but Peugeot, Citroen, Opel-Vauxhall commercial offerings too.
Remember the key context of the all the brands into the same showroom with Jeep which is rumored to be the Stellantis approach in for European market to save cost.
 
patfromigh said:
Here is the amazing hydrogen fuel cell, plugin electric van Stellantis showed off earlier in the year. I think the project started before the merger. It has a battery electric range of 50 km. I couldn't find the video, but here is a brochure from the press release.

Click to expand...
They stated hydrogen LCV products at the end of 2021 with more in 2022.
 
AlexB said:
RAM wouldn’t just be replace Fiat professional, but Peugeot, Citroen, Opel-Vauxhall commercial offerings too.
Remember the key context of the all the brands into the same showroom with Jeep which is rumored to be the Stellantis approach in for European market to save cost.
Click to expand...
It doesn't make sense. One of the more stupid things I read here.
 
Bili said:
It doesn't make sense. One of the more stupid things I head here.
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I don’t agree with putting all the brands into a single Dealership. But that’s where Stellantis is heading.
 
AlexB said:
I don’t agree with putting all the brands into a single Dealership. But that’s where Stellantis is heading.
Click to expand...
Single dealership? It's not the way in Europe. Not if you fight against VAG.
 
KrisW said:
The FIAT brand is very well regarded for LCVs in Europe, while RAM is unknown. Replacing that brand with RAM would bring no positives, and quite a bit of baggage. Stellantis will continue to sell Opel, FIAT, Citroën and Peugeot van models in Europe. Euro LCVs are all about light unladen weights and high fuel efficiency: those who even know what RAM is would not associate the brand with those attributes.

What will possibly happen is a rationalisation of the various joint-ventures so that all work is now in-house. FIAT had a long history of collaborating on commercial vans: the Ducato is also sold under various PSA brandnames; the Doblò had an Opel twin (until PSA bought Opel and moved it onto their own platform), and FIAT’s midsize van, Scudo, was a shared product with PSA until
FIAT moved it onto a Renault-Nissan JV and renamed it “Talento”*, so in a way some of those recent divorces will be undone by Stellantis.

The LCV models are all unibody vehicles, not body-on-frame, so they will be on one of the unibody platforms, not STLA Frame.

@pumadog Ducato and Daily overlap, but the IVECO van can handle heavier payloads.
Daily is rear-wheel drive. The entry model is 3.5 tonne gross vehicle weight (GVW), but the range continues up to a 7.0 tonne GVW rigid truck.
Ducato is front-wheel drive, starts at 3.0 tonne GVW and ends at 4.25 tonnes GVW in the Ducato Maxi variant.

__
* all of the FIAT vans are named after historic coins: Doblò (doubloon), Fiorino (florin) Scudo (escudo), Talento (talent), Ducato (ducat).
Click to expand...

My first question is, will Ducato continue using it's own unique van platform, or will it be folded in with one of the new STLA platforms?

If it's going to be on one of the new STLA Platforms, I don't see how it could be on STLA Large. Look at the dimension ranges they specified for STLA Large. Doesn't seem large enough to cover the full spectrum of full size van offerings. I think it would have to be on STLA Frame.

I'm also not sure there will be much to differentiate FWD/RWD, when you have the ability to offer either or both on the new STLA platforms.

So conceivably, you could cover all full size van segments with STLA Frame. They have also alluded to a something along the lines of hydrogen fuel cell options as well on that platform.

Maybe they could offer a larger mid size van on STLA Large to help cover the lower end of the current Ducato offerings.

I'm just speculating, since obviously I have no idea.
 
ScramFan said:
when you have the ability to offer either or both on the new STLA platforms.
Click to expand...
Yes if they are BEV but not with ICE. With ICE they are FWD or RWD based, never both.
 
Bili said:
Yes if they are BEV but not with ICE. With ICE they are FWD or RWD based, never both.
Click to expand...

True, but I'm asking about what will they do a few years from now.

My question is, will the FCA/PSA full size vans continue on their current unique platform, or will they migrate over to one of these new STLA electrified platforms?

I'm curious what the answer to that question is.
 
I might be wrong on the terminology, but platform is basically the dimensions for the carriers on the production line and architecture is the vehicle structure itself. The Fiat Ducato has two architectures. Lighter models use a different undercarriage than the heavier GVW models. The outer body panels are the same. All weight ranges are front drive based. I suspect this will continue into the future despite the new emphasis on electrification. The Ram ProMaster is based on the higher GVW undercarriage. That I know of no ProMasters have been marketed with less than 8,500 lbs. GVW. I don't know what the GVW of the Ducato models imported from Europe to Mexico are.

Light commercial vehicles are what their classification implies. They are commercial vehicles and not consumer vehicles. Commercial and fleet buyers have different needs and desires than those of consumers. I don't know what the future for diesel commercial vehicles in Europe holds. Will they be phased out or continue with hybrid drive trains? The Ram ProMaster for the past few years has been gasoline only. The diesel option was quietly dropped. I suspect many buyers on our side of the pond will still want an ICE under the hood. Continuing the unique platform makes a lot of sense under these parameters.

My educated guessing and idle speculation doesn't answer the question. I think we will know a lot more when Amazon takes delivery of the new BEV ProMaster vans in the near future.

IMO, the Euro Fiorino should move to the small electric platform. The size and purpose of such a commercial van makes this a practical decision, but I doubt TOFAS would build it. Next there are the medium size vans. Will they share a platform with the mid-size pickup truck? What will become of the Chrysler Pacifica? Will it move to the medium van platform? Perhaps all these vehicles will move to the STLA large platform. None of these designs have to use passenger car suspensions. Look what FCA has done with the SUSW Doblo and Toro models and their unique suspensions.
 
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ScramFan said:
My first question is, will Ducato continue using it's own unique van platform, or will it be folded in with one of the new STLA platforms?

If it's going to be on one of the new STLA Platforms, I don't see how it could be on STLA Large. Look at the dimension ranges they specified for STLA Large. Doesn't seem large enough to cover the full spectrum of full size van offerings. I think it would have to be on STLA Frame.

I'm also not sure there will be much to differentiate FWD/RWD, when you have the ability to offer either or both on the new STLA platforms.

So conceivably, you could cover all full size van segments with STLA Frame. They have also alluded to a something along the lines of hydrogen fuel cell options as well on that platform.

Maybe they could offer a larger mid size van on STLA Large to help cover the lower end of the current Ducato offerings.

I'm just speculating, since obviously I have no idea.
Click to expand...
My guess Ducato platform lives on just like the Gladiator/Wrangler platform as the exceptions to those 4 STLA Underpinnings.
 
patfromigh said:
I might be wrong on the terminology, but platform is basically the dimensions for the carriers on the production line and architecture is the vehicle structure itself. The Fiat Ducato has two architectures. Lighter models use a different undercarriage than the heavier GVW models. The outer body panels are the same. All weight ranges are front drive based. I suspect this will continue into the future despite the new emphasis on electrification. The Ram ProMaster is based on the higher GVW undercarriage. That I know of no ProMasters have been marketed with less than 8,500 lbs. GVW. I don't know what the GVW of the Ducato models imported from Europe to Mexico are.

Light commercial vehicles are what their classification implies. They are commercial vehicles and not consumer vehicles. Commercial and fleet buyers have different needs and desires than those of consumers. I don't know what the future for diesel commercial vehicles in Europe holds. Will they be phased out or continue with hybrid drive trains? The Ram ProMaster for the past few years has been gasoline only. The diesel option was quietly dropped. I suspect many buyers on our side of the pond will still want an ICE under the hood. Continuing the unique platform makes a lot of sense under these parameters.

My educated guessing and idle speculation doesn't answer the question. I think we will know a lot more when Amazon takes delivery of the new BEV ProMaster vans in the near future.

IMO, the Euro Fiorino should move to the small electric platform. The size and purpose of such a commercial van makes this a practical decision, but I doubt TOFAS would build it. Next there are the medium size vans. Will they share a platform with the mid-size pickup truck? What will become of the Chrysler Pacifica? Will it move to the medium van platform? Perhaps all these vehicles will move to the STLA large platform. None of these designs have to use passenger car suspensions. Look what FCA has done with the SUSW Doblo and Toro models and their unique suspensions.
Click to expand...
The Pacifica and the smaller LCV offerings is likely STLA Medium.
 
ScramFan said:
My first question is, will Ducato continue using it's own unique van platform, or will it be folded in with one of the new STLA platforms?

If it's going to be on one of the new STLA Platforms, I don't see how it could be on STLA Large. Look at the dimension ranges they specified for STLA Large. Doesn't seem large enough to cover the full spectrum of full size van offerings. I think it would have to be on STLA Frame.

I'm also not sure there will be much to differentiate FWD/RWD, when you have the ability to offer either or both on the new STLA platforms.

So conceivably, you could cover all full size van segments with STLA Frame. They have also alluded to a something along the lines of hydrogen fuel cell options as well on that platform.

Maybe they could offer a larger mid size van on STLA Large to help cover the lower end of the current Ducato offerings.

I'm just speculating, since obviously I have no idea.
Click to expand...
The four STLA architectures are for passenger vehicles; Large LCVs and special-purpose models like Wrangler will continue to get their own.

Ducato is already on its own architecture, shared with PSA vehicles. Its lineage goes back to the mid-1970s FIAT 240/Citroën C35. What will most likely happen regarding electrification is that FCA’s in-house process will be used to electrify the PSA branded models (PSA used an external retrofitting company to produce its EV models). ProMaster EV is coming soon, but if it’s like Ducato, it’ll be sold to big logistics fleet operators first.

As far as I can see, STLA Frame is for body-on-frame construction, which would be far too heavy and space-inefficient for this application. I can’t over-stress how important unladen weight and usable volume is in this class. On weight, particularly, driver licensing across the EU only allows drivers to operate a vehicle of up to 3.5 tonnes (7800 lb) gross weight on a normal car licence. Some countries extend this to limit to 5 tonnes (11000lb), but above that weight, you need to sit a separate test. Because of this, van fleet operators want something that’s under 3.5 tonnes gross (so that anyone with a driving licence can operate it), but with as much of that weight devoted to cargo as humanly possible. A body-on-frame design means losing 2-300kg of payload and hundreds of litres of cargo space.

The mid-size van, Talento (not offered in the USA) most likely will be replaced with a product on STLA Medium. After all, EMP1 is the basis of PSA’s mid-size vans: Peugeot Expert, Opel Vivaro, Toyota ProAce, Citroen Jumpy/Dispatch. (Yes, Toyota. Joint-ventures and outsourced production are the rule in the European LCV market). In 2020, Renault said it would terminate its contract with FCA for the FIAT Talento, so that Talento replacement will come fairly soon.

Regarding Fiorino, that’s another van that’s already shared with PSA brands. Currently, it’s based on the old FIAT Punto (SCCS, the predecessor of Small Wide) and built by Tofaş in Turkey. A future BEV model could conceivably be built off CMP, but I think it’s more likely to be something developed from the FCA eMini platform used by 500e (the dimensions and other specifications for STLA Small shown in the Stellantis BEV day presentations match eMINI, but not CMP/EMP1).
 
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