Tavares Says Electric Vehicles Cost 40% More To Manufacture

[cygnus]

“One time “is complete BS, 2019/2021/2022 proved that
Again you ignore that nearly ATP $60,000 (JL+Gladiator) VS mid -to-high $30,000 with JK is way better financially for FCA/Stellantis.

Two of those years were Covid supply chain madness when people had more money than sense because they couldn't travel, and decided to overpay by $15K for their vehicle.

Reality is what you’re seeing now. Completely deflated sales.

JK Rubicons were in the upper 40s.

 

[Deckard Cain]

Maybe the PSA side of the house has problems building a less expensive EV, but I suspect the FCA side can and will. That is only if the management team lets them.

They won't.
The small EVs based on the CMP platform are ridiculously overpriced and Tavares is crying because MG, Dacia and BYD have made that starkly clear. Especially with the MG 4 already climbing in sales in France.
They're stuck between dropping the price to unprofitable levels and eat a loss in the next couple of years with their EVs, like it happened with Tesla at the start, or they'll start seeing their sales dwindle.
They thought they could go for a cash grab with the "Car of the Year" (lol - bought and paid for title) Avenger. Tesla cut the Model 3 price and MG launched the MG 4, with bigger battery/range, and interior space which makes it obvious that it is ridiculously overpriced.
This is just Tavares becoming aware that he can't keep milking obscene margins anymore.

 

[cygnus]

What’s up with EVs based on STLA small and medium?

If EVs based on STLA Small and Medium are based on CMP today, when is Gen2 that is a clean sheet design and totally scraps CMP, coming out?

 

[Deckard Cain]

Supposedly the new Peugeot 3008 and the new Opel Grandland (both C-SUVs) will arrive by the end of 2025. They will be STLA Medium based.
Before that, they're just using the CMP and EMP PSA platforms which are compromised and can't take batteries much bigger than the 54kWh capacity they have now.
This means that effectively for the next two years/two years and a half Stellantis doesn't have any competitive EV for sizes bigger than sub-compact models.

The e-308 and Astra-e are stop gaps born out of desperation. They also only have the 54kWh battery option but offer the knee room on the back seats of the ICE vehicles, which in this platform is already meager. Meanwhile, the MG4 offers a 51kWh and a 64kWh battery and a price competitive with the ICE models! Comparing with EVs like the ID3 and MG 4 of this segment, the difference is ridiculous. Stellantis can offer not much better than the entry level of these models, and I bet Tavares wanted to price them at Tesla Model 3 comparable prices. Now he cannot, hence the whining.

The US is a different issue, Stellantis is still at the pace of others, there's no chinese competition so they will be competitive.

In Europe, PSA was caught sleeping in the electrification race and since FCA got stuck with them, they're now also suffering those consequences.
It's quite clear why PSA was the last option for a merger with FCA, and Renault was the first one. The eMégane is a good competitive product, they have access to the Nissan Ariya platform and are already going to release a sister model. If FCA had merged with them I bet we would have competitive EVs next year with FCA's brands based on the Ariya platform. FYI, the Ariya is almost as good in terms of range as the Model Y LR.
The reason for the priority given to a small Alfa Romeo is simple: an EV Alfa could only be done quickly in the CMP platform.

Tavares knows they can't compete in the short term/medium term. Thus, he complains and lobbies to delay.

 

[pumadog]

I don't know if it's fair to call the Stellantis EVs "ridiculously overpriced". It's hard to compare European pricing and costs with Chinese products which don't wear the "burden" of workers rights, unions and environmental protection. Also the Chinese government might subsidize them for the entrance to the western markets. You might compare them to European, American, Japanese or Korean counterparts. But where are the small EVs from other European automakers? The Renault Zoe is old and not a bestseller outside France anymore.

Of course Tavares' public whining is lobby work. That's part of his job.

Price apart, I think the e-CMP models are quite attractive after their latest > 400 km upgrade. The e-EMP models not so much. But the new e-3008 on STLA Medium will be presented already this year, produced next year. e-5008 soon after. Also the new Opel Grandland on STLA Medium will be produced in Eisenach from 2024 H2. Where did you get the "end of 2025"?

Für elektrischen Nachfolger des Opel Grandland: Stellantis investiert 130 Millionen Euro in das Werk Eisenach

Produktion von neuem batterieelektrischen Modell (BEV) auf „STLA Medium“-Plattform soll in der zweiten Jahreshälfte 2024 starten Werkszuteilung unterstützt mutiges Bekenntnis der Marke Opel zu einem vollelektrischen Angebot bis 2028 Aktuelle Produktion in Eisenach umfasst Opel Grandland...

www.media.stellantis.com

PEUGEOT E-LION DAY: 100 Prozent elektrisch und 100 Prozent überzeugend

Rüsselsheim am Main, den 26.01.2023. PEUGEOT ist auf dem besten Weg, die ehrgeizigen Ziele der Elektrifizierung zu erreichen:

www.media.stellantis.com

PS. Renault makes me sad with a view on the new Espace

 

[TripleT]

That is a reasonable point. BYD couldn't pass a EU or NA crash test if they cheated.

 

[Deckard Cain]

I don't know if it's fair to call the Stellantis EVs "ridiculously overpriced". It's hard to compare European pricing and costs with Chinese products which don't wear the "burden" of workers rights, unions and environmental protection. Also the Chinese government might subsidize them for the entrance to the western markets. You might compare them to European, American, Japanese or Korean counterparts. But where are the small EVs from other European automakers? The Renault Zoe is old and not a bestseller outside France anymore.

Of course Tavares' public whining is lobby work. That's part of his job.

Price apart, I think the e-CMP models are quite attractive after their latest > 400 km upgrade. The e-EMP models not so much. But the new e-3008 on STLA Medium will be presented already this year, produced next year. e-5008 soon after. Also the new Opel Grandland on STLA Medium will be produced in Eisenach from 2024 H2. Where did you get the "end of 2025"?

Für elektrischen Nachfolger des Opel Grandland: Stellantis investiert 130 Millionen Euro in das Werk Eisenach

Produktion von neuem batterieelektrischen Modell (BEV) auf „STLA Medium“-Plattform soll in der zweiten Jahreshälfte 2024 starten Werkszuteilung unterstützt mutiges Bekenntnis der Marke Opel zu einem vollelektrischen Angebot bis 2028 Aktuelle Produktion in Eisenach umfasst Opel Grandland...

www.media.stellantis.com

PEUGEOT E-LION DAY: 100 Prozent elektrisch und 100 Prozent überzeugend

Rüsselsheim am Main, den 26.01.2023. PEUGEOT ist auf dem besten Weg, die ehrgeizigen Ziele der Elektrifizierung zu erreichen:

www.media.stellantis.com

PS. Renault makes me sad with a view on the new Espace

Compare the price of the Avenger with the Tesla Model 3, which is a midsize model not a sub-compact model.
Also the 400km update? You mean the 3kWh increase in battery capacity and some fudging of WLTP range numbers? If Stellantis actually makes an EV with a 12.5kWh/100km energy consumption then they would be absolute market leaders. Don't fool yourself.

 

[pumadog]

I do agree that the industry has to adjust their prices. But that doesn't mean the cars are overpriced from an industrial viewpoint. Remember that the Model 3 was 6000 € more expensive just two weeks ago. They might raise their prices again in three months.

About WLTP ranges, they are totally off for every EV. You're lucky you get 2/3 range in real world. We need a new test standard, again. And light EVs should get rewarded by taxes, since the big and heavy EVs eat their economic advantage against lighter ICE cars.

The e-CMP cars got a new engine which should be more effective. A list of real world EV consumtion (Corsa and 208 all the old version so far): The most power efficient electric vehicles - Spritmonitor.de

 

[redriderbob]

Ford projects a $3B loss from its EV division in 2023

“Startups lose money as they invest in capability," said the company's CFO on Thursday.

fortune.com

 

[cygnus]

I do agree that the industry has to adjust their prices. But that doesn't mean the cars are overpriced from an industrial viewpoint. Remember that the Model 3 was 6000 € more expensive just two weeks ago. They might raise their prices again in three months.

About WLTP ranges, they are totally off for every EV. You're lucky you get 2/3 range in real world. We need a new test standard, again. And light EVs should get rewarded by taxes, since the big and heavy EVs eat their economic advantage against lighter ICE cars.

The e-CMP cars got a new engine which should be more effective. A list of real world EV consumtion (Corsa and 208 all the old version so far): The most power efficient electric vehicles - Spritmonitor.de

Good points, agree.

 

[Deckard Cain]

I do agree that the industry has to adjust their prices. But that doesn't mean the cars are overpriced from an industrial viewpoint. Remember that the Model 3 was 6000 € more expensive just two weeks ago. They might raise their prices again in three months.

About WLTP ranges, they are totally off for every EV. You're lucky you get 2/3 range in real world. We need a new test standard, again. And light EVs should get rewarded by taxes, since the big and heavy EVs eat their economic advantage against lighter ICE cars.

The e-CMP cars got a new engine which should be more effective. A list of real world EV consumtion (Corsa and 208 all the old version so far): The most power efficient electric vehicles - Spritmonitor.de

The engine will never be efficient enough to reach a magical 12.5kWh/100km of efficiency.
The WLTP range is not 2/3 range in real world for models of all brands. You have brands where the discrepancy is around 10% and the most abusive ones are around 30 yes. I can assure you the Jeep Avenger now is on that 30% estimate.
The iX3 has a range of 458km. I can get a range of 410km with my daily driving for example. Because they don't claim absurd values like Stellantis to disguise their lack of competitiveness.

The cars might not be overpriced from an industrial viewpoint, but they're overpriced in a market viewpoint against competitors. If they cannot industrially be competitive then that means that management failed to make the company competitive. It's as simple as that.
It's quite simple: currently they are going to have to eat a loss on their EVs for the next couple of years. Tesla ate losses for a decade before turning profitable and they now have an enormous war chest of liquidity.
Stellantis is in a hard place because they have platform for small EVs where you cannot charge a premium easily as you can with bigger vehicles to compensate higher prices of batteries (which could further drop with bigger orders from suppliers). They need to eat losses to make themselves competitive in the market.

 

[pumadog]

So where's the competitive small EV from BMW group? Not existing, they have to outsource to China for electric MINI. Where's the competitive small EV from Mercedes (ex Daimler) Group? Not existing, they sold Smart to China. Where's the competitive small EV from VW Group? Not existing, they stopped the e-Up (and Twins) because they lost money. Ford? They have to buy-in their entire EV platform for Europe. You see, it's not only difficult for Stellantis to make money with a small European EV.

Hmm, I thought WLTP was a standardised test cycle and not a fantasy roulette. Just not realistic for the real world, since it uses only a fraction of the horsepower. But you're getting quite close to the ADAC Eco test with the iX3:

BMW iX3 (286 PS)
WLTP: 18,5 kWh/100 km
ADAC Eco: 21,2 kWh/100 km, test factor: 87%
Spritmonitor (without wrong entry): 21,3 kWh/100 km, reality factor: 87%

Opel Corsa e (136 PS)
WLTP: 15,6 kWh/100 km/100 km
ADAC Eco: 18,8 kWh/100 km/100 km, test factor: 83%
Spritmonitor: 17,7 kWh/100 km, reality factor: 88%

So the difference between WLTP and reality is pretty similar around 12-13% according to the (probably savings orientated) Spritmonitor drivers.


Jeep Avenger (156 PS)
WLTP: 15,8 kWh/100 km
Spritmonitor: No entry yet

Where did you get the "magical 12.5kWh/100 km"? I don't see why the new engine should be worse than the old one.

BMW iX3 Elektro-SUV: Test, Daten, Reichweite, Preis | ADAC

Der Elektro-SUV BMW iX3 bekommt Bestnoten im ADAC Test

www.adac.de

Opel Corsa Electric: Neue Optik, neue Technik, neue Reichweite

Der Opel Corsa Electric wird mit dem Facelift noch alltagstauglicher als zuvor. Die neue Technik, die Preise, der erste ADAC Test.

www.adac.de

Electricity consumption: BMW - iX3 - Spritmonitor.de

Overview BMW, iX3

www.spritmonitor.de

Electricity consumption: Opel - Corsa - Spritmonitor.de

Overview Opel, Corsa

www.spritmonitor.de

Jeep Avenger: Das kann Jeeps erstes E-Auto

Der Avenger ist das erste elektrische Fahrzeug der Marke. Das kann das Kleinwagen-SUV.

www.adac.de

Jeep Avenger Elektro 1st Edition

Alle Details zum Jeep Avenger Elektro 1st Edition (2023-2023). Vergleiche Preise, Verfügbarkeiten, reale Reichweiten und Vebräuche von allen Elektroautos.

ev-database.org

 

[Deckard Cain]

So where's the competitive small EV from BMW group? Not existing, they have to outsource to China for electric MINI. Where's the competitive small EV from Mercedes (ex Daimler) Group? Not existing, they sold Smart to China. Where's the competitive small EV from VW Group? Not existing, they stopped the e-Up (and Twins) because they lost money. Ford? They have to buy-in their entire EV platform for Europe. You see, it's not only difficult for Stellantis to make money with a small European EV.

Hmm, I thought WLTP was a standardised test cycle and not a fantasy roulette. Just not realistic for the real world, since it uses only a fraction of the horsepower. But you're getting quite close to the ADAC Eco test with the iX3:

BMW iX3 (286 PS)
WLTP: 18,5 kWh/100 km
ADAC Eco: 21,2 kWh/100 km, test factor: 87%
Spritmonitor (without wrong entry): 21,3 kWh/100 km, reality factor: 87%

Opel Corsa e (136 PS)
WLTP: 15,6 kWh/100 km/100 km
ADAC Eco: 18,8 kWh/100 km/100 km, test factor: 83%
Spritmonitor: 17,7 kWh/100 km, reality factor: 88%

So the difference between WLTP and reality is pretty similar around 12-13% according to the (probably savings orientated) Spritmonitor drivers.


Jeep Avenger (156 PS)
WLTP: 15,8 kWh/100 km
Spritmonitor: No entry yet

Where did you get the "magical 12.5kWh/100 km"? I don't see why the new engine should be worse than the old one.

BMW iX3 Elektro-SUV: Test, Daten, Reichweite, Preis | ADAC

Der Elektro-SUV BMW iX3 bekommt Bestnoten im ADAC Test

www.adac.de

Opel Corsa Electric: Neue Optik, neue Technik, neue Reichweite

Der Opel Corsa Electric wird mit dem Facelift noch alltagstauglicher als zuvor. Die neue Technik, die Preise, der erste ADAC Test.

www.adac.de

Electricity consumption: BMW - iX3 - Spritmonitor.de

Overview BMW, iX3

www.spritmonitor.de

Electricity consumption: Opel - Corsa - Spritmonitor.de

Overview Opel, Corsa

www.spritmonitor.de

Jeep Avenger: Das kann Jeeps erstes E-Auto

Der Avenger ist das erste elektrische Fahrzeug der Marke. Das kann das Kleinwagen-SUV.

www.adac.de

Jeep Avenger Elektro 1st Edition

Alle Details zum Jeep Avenger Elektro 1st Edition (2023-2023). Vergleiche Preise, Verfügbarkeiten, reale Reichweiten und Vebräuche von allen Elektroautos.

ev-database.org

Jeep Avenger usable battery: 50.8kWh.
WLTP range: 400km

I get the "magical" 12.5kWh/100km with something called "basic math".
50.8/400*100=12.7kWh/100km - I am sorry for the egregious 0.2kWh/100km mistake but I was estimating a 50kWh usable battery size and not 50.8kWh.
They announced a 400km WLTP range. That's not realistic in the least.
If they effectively are saying that WLTP consumption is 15.8kWh/100km then the REAL range of the Avenger is 321.5km. That is a more realistic number. Even then, I bet the median consumption might be higher and around the Corsa-e values. 50.8/17.7*100= 287km.
Announced range is 400km. 287/400=71.75%. IMO, the Avenger real range will fall in the Corsa-e value. So it might reach 300-315km at Spring/Autumn temperatures.
In Winter you will get 250km.

 

[cygnus]

The OEMs you've referenced don't care about anything smaller than C-segment for EVs. It's literally the last priority. All the halo models have been converted to EVs, for the OEMs you've mentioned. Those took priority.

 

[cygnus]

That is a reasonable point. BYD couldn't pass a EU or NA crash test if they cheated.

Bring on the Chinese vehicles, these OEMs are gangsters. Toyota is the only company with any semblance of sanity at this point.

 

[pumadog]

The OEMs you've referenced don't care about anything smaller than C-segment for EVs. It's literally the last priority. All the halo models have been converted to EVs, for the OEMs you've mentioned. Those took priority.

Yes, and why? Because it's hard to make money with in Europe.

 

[cygnus]

No one is making any money on EVs, in any on region on earth, except BYD and Tesla. From a P&L standpoint, I would venture to wager that Tesla Europe is in the single digit percentage negative gross margin operating range, and is largely saved by Tesla Shanghai exports to Europe (which are very profitable).

US and China are the money making markets for Tesla. BYD is the EV leader in China and it isn't even close (their lead over Tesla is actually growing).

I would love to see the Chinese OEMs start going upmarket, and exporting LFP EV vehicles to the US. Who cares if they don't get the IRA subsidy, the gangster OEMs pocket it anyway when they all collectively raised their prices.

This is my sincere hope for the next 10 years - put STLA and the rest of the gangster OEMs in their place.

 

[pumadog]

Jeep Avenger usable battery: 50.8kWh.
WLTP range: 400km

I get the "magical" 12.5kWh/100km with something called "basic math".
50.8/400*100=12.7kWh/100km - I am sorry for the egregious 0.2kWh/100km mistake but I was estimating a 50kWh usable battery size and not 50.8kWh.
They announced a 400km WLTP range. That's not realistic in the least.
If they effectively are saying that WLTP consumption is 15.8kWh/100km then the REAL range of the Avenger is 321.5km. That is a more realistic number. Even then, I bet the median consumption might be higher and around the Corsa-e values. 50.8/17.7*100= 287km.
Announced range is 400km. 287/400=71.75%. IMO, the Avenger real range will fall in the Corsa-e value. So it might reach 300-315km at Spring/Autumn temperatures.
In Winter you will get 250km.

They do. On the German website actually 15.9-15.3 kWh/100 km according to WLTP. I don't know how that can translate to 400 km range. But it has to by the rules, otherwise the advertising message would be illegal.

 

[cygnus]

Why is the real-world range of the Avenger being argued about? Aren't there owner forums where the truth is already discerned at this point?

I agree with DC that any EV that STLA has available for sale today is not really competitive, relative to the EV competition in Europe.

 

[Deckard Cain]

Bring on the Chinese vehicles, these OEMs are gangsters. Toyota is the only company with any semblance of sanity at this point.

And the interesting thing that TripleT didn't mention?
The BYD Atto 3 has 5 stars on the european crash tests EuroNCAP. The MG 4 has 5 stars on the EuroNCAP crash tests.
The chinese manufacturers have the financial muscle already to make vehicles compliant with european safety regulations.

Yes, and why? Because it's hard to make money with in Europe.

And Stellantis is in a bad place. They don't have a platform for large EVs where they actually turn a profit and now with their small EVs they will have to drop prices to unprofitable levels.
The best selling Porsche is the Taycan. In the profitable large segments, EVs are driving sales in Europe.
It's quite normal that at the start EVs won't give profit. The initial investments to set up new factories, production lines, R&D, etc are enormous and they require a few years to amortize.
Ofcourse, in the finance world where cocaine-snorting financiers only look at trimestral results, things won't look good for a few trimesters and dividends will decrease for a while. So the parasites won't be happy.