HEMI® Takeover: Dodge Shocks Media with V8-Only 2026 Durango Lineup

TripleT · 2025-08-12T12:23:25-0700

Copilot

In North America during 2024, electric vehicles (EVs) significantly outsold performance cars.

EV Sales Highlights:

Total EV sales in the U.S. reached 1.3 million units, accounting for 8% of all new vehicle sales
1
.
Combined U.S. and Canada EV sales hit 1.8 million units, showing a 9% year-over-year growth
2
.
Tesla remained the dominant EV brand, holding about 50% of the U.S. EV market share
2
.

Performance Car Sales:

While exact figures for performance car sales (e.g., sports cars, muscle cars, high-performance variants) are harder to isolate, they represent a much smaller niche in the overall market. For comparison:

In 2023, Ford Mustang sales (one of the most iconic performance cars) were around 50,000 units in the U.S.
Other performance models like the Chevrolet Corvette, Dodge Challenger, and BMW M-series typically sell in the tens of thousands annually.

Even if we generously estimate total performance car sales across all brands to be under 500,000 units, they still fall far short of EV sales.

Conclusion:

EVs outsold performance cars by a wide margin in North America in 2024, reflecting the growing consumer shift toward electrification and sustainability.

TripleT · 2025-08-12T12:27:19-0700

By the way if you include All Electric assisted Vehicles it 3.2 million. EV growth has slowed by PHEV and HEV have exploded by 40%

cygnus · 2025-08-12T12:31:37-0700

Take the total number of EVs Ford has sold and divide it by the 2024 and 2025 Ford Model-E division losses.

TripleT · 2025-08-12T12:55:52-0700

cygnus said:
I can get on board, eventually, with REEV. 20-30 years from now.

But there’s no conceivable universe where REEV isn’t insanely more expensive (without subsidies) vs V8 ICE.

Remember a couple years ago when people said per KwH battery costs were like Moore’s Law, in that price would decrease while energy density increased? Absolutely hasn’t happened outside of China, which has human rights abuses in their battery supply chain. China totally trashes their environment when sourcing, manufacturing, and disposing of batteries as well. I would never want to live in China.

If it takes REEV Mopar is 20 years away. Mopar doesn't exist. Next Japanese and Korean cars and trucks will not have connections between ice motor and drivetrain. They are really close at this point. And China corporations are inevitable unless they attack Taiwan. Korea and Tesla are also deep into density, Solid state is on the way. You do get that REEV at is essence is simpler than a Hybrid.

At this point your arguing for Steam locomotives versus Diesel Electric. REEV and EV powertrains are inevitable. V8 performance cars is a Niche, and a Niche no company can survive on alone.

cygnus · 2025-08-12T13:16:54-0700

for something that is framed as inevitable, what do you see for EV sales in the absence of a tax credit, which ends September 30th?

I will venture EV sales will decline 15% in 2026 vs 2025, and decline another 10% in 2027.

Everyone who wants and can afford one, will have one, by September 30th. Guess what happens in 2028 if the current party in power wins again? The credit is never going to come back.

And the consumer preferences will split exactly along the lines of party preference. Except many on one side, the side not in power, cannot afford a new vehicle.

Ryan · 2025-08-12T13:33:36-0700

cygnus said:
for something that is framed as inevitable, what do you see for EV sales in the absence of a tax credit, which ends September 30th?

I will venture EV sales will decline 15% in 2026 vs 2025, and decline another 10% in 2027.

Everyone who wants and can afford one, will have one, by September 30th. Guess what happens in 2028 if the current party in power wins again? The credit is never going to come back.

And the consumer preferences will split exactly along the lines of party preference. Except many on one side, the side not in power, cannot afford a new vehicle.

Let’s be careful to avoid political mud slinging in this thread.

Instead, where are those sales figures and profit margins that back up your statement that V8 Chargers, Challengers, and Durangos produced more profit for the company than mass market V6 vehicles?

TripleT · 2025-08-12T13:45:28-0700

cygnus said:
for something that is framed as inevitable, what do you see for EV sales in the absence of a tax credit, which ends September 30th?

I will venture EV sales will decline 15% in 2026 vs 2025, and decline another 10% in 2027.

Everyone who wants and can afford one, will have one, by September 30th. Guess what happens in 2028 if the current party in power wins again? The credit is never going to come back.

And the consumer preferences will split exactly along the lines of party preference. Except many on one side, the side not in power, cannot afford a new vehicle.

That is pure Team Partisanship... and is a bit of insight into your argument. YEAH TEAM... not YEAH Solution. EV sales are about to make another leap in the next few years with the conversion from Performance to Affordability. Ford, Honda, and Toyota are about to create sea change that has already happened in China. With New models that will cost less than a Used ICE car. Not to Mention Slate. BYD is building plants all over the planet.

Mopar is going to be left holding it drawers again while the whole world passes it by because a small group of enthusiast insist it can only have ONE powertrain.

Mopar a full decade behind comes out with EV model with ICE model to support it. Using Tech that is nearly that old. I falls flat. And V8 guys go see see. When the Electrified market already exceeds the ICE V8.

Not to mention while inserting politics into the thread needlessly. Your 2 years away from another reset.

I would venture to guess that Ryan and I are on extremely different sides of the political isle. But both recognize the Hemi enthusiast are creating a untenable situation where any progress is viewed as negative forcing the company further backwards in a shrinking niche.

Stop with the only one solutions when the real answer is all of the above.

Ryan · 2025-08-12T13:51:35-0700

TripleT said:
That is pure Team Partisanship... and is a bit of insight into your argument. YEAH TEAM... not YEAH Solution. EV sales are about to make another leap in the next few years with the conversion from Performance to Affordability. Ford, Honda, and Toyota are about to create sea change that has already happened in China. With New models that will cost less than a Used ICE car. Not to Mention Slate. BYD is building plants all over the planet.

Mopar is going to be left holding it drawers again while the whole world passes it by because a small group of enthusiast insist it can only have ONE powertrain.

Mopar a full decade behind comes out with EV model with ICE model to support it. Using Tech that is nearly that old. I falls flat. And V8 guys go see see. When the Electrified market already exceeds the ICE V8.

Not to mention while inserting politics into the thread needlessly. Your 2 years away from another reset.

I would venture to guess that Ryan and I are on extremely different sides of the political isle. But both recognize the Hemi enthusiast are creating a untenable situation where any progress is viewed as negative forcing the company further backwards in a shrinking niche.

Stop with the only one solutions when the real answer is all of the above.

It’s not a political issue. It’s an issue of technological progress, which will ALWAYS happen, regardless of political party in power.

Trying to make it a political issue is grasping at straws. Life moves on, things change, technologies get better. If Stellantis doesn’t get on board, they will be left behind.

TripleT · 2025-08-12T13:59:01-0700

Ryan said:
It’s not a political issue. It’s an issue of technological progress, which will ALWAYS happen, regardless of political party in power.

Trying to make it a political issue is grasping at straws. Life moves on, things change, technologies get better. If you don’t get on board, you will be left behind.

Unfortunately it did become Partisan because some to the push was anti-free market. In the end that doesn't matter, and diminishes over time.

Toyota has stayed above the fray and quietly is converting the majority market to Electrized one model year at a time. Not Peep when Camry dropped the torque converter altogether. Now one will notice when the vehicles no longer have a physical connection to the ICE engine. It will be smooth and uneventful.

Meanwhile at MOPAR it has to Have 8 cylinder, a plastic cover that says Hemi. And better not have a turbo or motor to replace the torque converter.

While one slips into niche obscurity the other is excelling.

Hemi should have been phased out, but the clinging to it as the only option is killing the company not its rapid obsolesces.

Ryan · 2025-08-12T14:02:20-0700

TripleT said:
Unfortunately it did become Partisan because some to the push was anti-free market. In the end that doesn't matter, and diminishes over time.

Toyota has stayed above the fray and quietly is converting the majority market to Electrized one model year at a time. Not Peep when Camry dropped the torque converter altogether. Now one will notice when the vehicles no longer have a physical connection to the ICE engine. It will be smooth and uneventful.

Meanwhile at MOPAR it has to Have 8 cylinder, a plastic cover that says Hemi. And better not have a turbo or motor to replace the torque converter.

While one slips into niche obscurity the other is excelling.

Hemi should have been phased out, but the clinging to it as the only option is killing the company not its rapid obsolesces.

I bought one of those 2025 Camry Hybrids when my Grand Cherokee became a nuisance. Absolutely zero reason to not buy a hybrid again - great efficiency, drivability isn’t really different, and no start stop because it can drive in EV mode at low speeds and from a stop. Hybrid is absolutely the way to go and will be like a gateway drug for people to move from that to PHEVs and EVs when the time is right.

BWS1 · 2025-08-12T14:24:10-0700

scatpack_69 said:
Every conceivable metric, combustion is superior. There’s not even a debate to be had here. Visceral feel is the best you can come up with?? I dunno, I bet lifting the wheels in a Demon 170 is a wilder ride and more smile-inducing than a literal appliance. But I’ve never been in either so….the near silent operation (or fake pumped-in noises) don’t appeal, regardless how quick they are. I like the character, sound, feel of combustion.

Range, combustion. Resale, combustion. Reliability, combustion. Service, combustion. Upgrades, mods, etc, combustion. Safety, combustion. And on and on and on. I know plenty of first responders that are damn near scared ****less about responding to wrecks involving EV’s…coupled with the self driving characteristics they really want to push with EV’s, nope bad bad idea.

The ONLY potential benefit to electric that I can see, is cold weather related, I.e. near instant heat and weight of the barges will help in bad conditions, but the flip side of that is, guess what happens to batteries in the cold? Yup, your ****ty short EV range gets even worse.

Instant torque? Ok, so? I’ve got a Cummins with 2000+, I’m good there. What do we know, unequivocally, about tech and computers? They fail and have glitches and quickly become obsolete. Ain’t anyone going to be wrenching on their EV themselves, we won’t be swapping battery packs at home to keep this overpriced refrigerator on the road like we can to paid off and still perfectly reliable and usable, 20 year old combustion vehicles.

I will say, the outlier is Ramcharger. It’s the best electric option on the planet and seems we may, possibly, not even see it? I suppose we shall see. A Ramcharger, 3500 dually would be an insane tow rig. Especially with a Cummins as the genset so I can still feel like a man, no V6 dually should ever exist

I’m a first responder , nothing any more or less scary about the Ev than hauling around 25-30 gallons of gasoline leaking out everywhere in a bad wreck.
Service? I’ve got two extended family members in Tesla. The cars have been completely totally service and maintenance free. For 60+k miles.
I don’t want an EV. Will never own one. But they have their place, and they will outsell ICE much sooner than you think. Like it or not.

patfromigh · 2025-08-12T16:17:01-0700

Both Tim Kuniskis (Ram) and Bob Broderdorf (Jeep) have indicated in recent interviews that bringing back the Hemi is a course correction, not a long term direction. The abrupt cancellation of the Hemi and a myopic focus on battery electric by the previous regime has chilled customer relations. Customers want choice and for that they need a variety of options to choose from. The pace of the move towards battery electric has slowed, but it will still continue. The product pipeline hasn't been capped off, it is only slowed down.

A focus, bordering on a fetish, towards pure EV drive trains by some executives on the PSA side of the Stellantis house has managed to steamroll hybrid development. The obsessive cost cutting has sidelined hybrid development as the Aisin and Magna systems are phased out in favor of the questionable Punch hybrid. We should be seeing the introduction of the next generation ZF hybrid 8-speeds by now in both 48V and high voltage variants. Jeep should never have tried to pass off the Wrangler and Grand Cherokee PHEV models as nearly pure electric. It only confuses buyers.

Bob Broderdorf is correct in saying customers want choice. Well give us some choice. Start with a 48V mild hybrid with an e-motor in the transmission for the two door Wrangler. The battery for a mild hybrid doesn't have to be that large, it will fit in the shorter two-door model. For the Wrangler and Grand Cherokee 4Xe models, offer them without the plug. People do not understand plugin hybrids just yet. Give them a choice.

The same focus on choice should be used by Ram as well. The Ramcharger is a good starting point. How about e-beam axles for the HD Ram Trucks powered by the Ramcharger's REEV drive? Dodge had a Hemi-hybrid model of the Durango at one point. How about a Hemi-hybrid Ram 1500? There should be a mild hybrid RHO, because 48V electrics allow for more powerful engine cooling accessories and items like an e-chiller. This will also allow Ram to dump that clunky Start/Stop setup. BSG was a better setup.

The Hydrogen hybrid system for the vans seemed like a good idea, but didn't pan out. Instead of combining a hydrogen fuel cell with a battery electric drive combine the battery electric drive with a small IC engine. You can get back some of you investment off the hydrogen setup.

My final point, if you're building battery electric drive trains, you have an in-house source of e-axles. Build some state of the art plugin hybrids and REEVs with them.

cygnus · 2025-08-12T18:25:14-0700

Ryan said:
Instead, where are those sales figures and profit margins that back up your statement that V8 Chargers, Challengers, and Durangos produced more profit for the company than mass market V6 vehicles?

I'm not going to share granular trade secret information to prove my point because you don't understand basic business and economics - sorry. I've painted the picture in broad strokes which subsequently tracks across other industries, products, and lines of business, of which I gave a specific example (AMD).

Don't you work at a dealership or something? Go ask the sales manager.

cygnus · 2025-08-12T18:32:59-0700

patfromigh said:
Both Tim Kuniskis (Ram) and Bob Broderdorf (Jeep) have indicated in recent interviews that bringing back the Hemi is a course correction, not a long term direction. The abrupt cancellation of the Hemi and a myopic focus on battery electric by the previous regime has chilled customer relations. Customers want choice and for that they need a variety of options to choose from. The pace of the move towards battery electric has slowed, but it will still continue. The product pipeline hasn't been capped off, it is only slowed down.

A focus, bordering on a fetish, towards pure EV drive trains by some executives on the PSA side of the Stellantis house has managed to steamroll hybrid development. The obsessive cost cutting has sidelined hybrid development as the Aisin and Magna systems are phased out in favor of the questionable Punch hybrid. We should be seeing the introduction of the next generation ZF hybrid 8-speeds by now in both 48V and high voltage variants. Jeep should never have tried to pass off the Wrangler and Grand Cherokee PHEV models as nearly pure electric. It only confuses buyers.

Bob Broderdorf is correct in saying customers want choice. Well give us some choice. Start with a 48V mild hybrid with an e-motor in the transmission for the two door Wrangler. The battery for a mild hybrid doesn't have to be that large, it will fit in the shorter two-door model. For the Wrangler and Grand Cherokee 4Xe models, offer them without the plug. People do not understand plugin hybrids just yet. Give them a choice.

The same focus on choice should be used by Ram as well. The Ramcharger is a good starting point. How about e-beam axles for the HD Ram Trucks powered by the Ramcharger's REEV drive? Dodge had a Hemi-hybrid model of the Durango at one point. How about a Hemi-hybrid Ram 1500? There should be a mild hybrid RHO, because 48V electrics allow for more powerful engine cooling accessories and items like an e-chiller. This will also allow Ram to dump that clunky Start/Stop setup. BSG was a better setup.

The Hydrogen hybrid system for the vans seemed like a good idea, but didn't pan out. Instead of combining a hydrogen fuel cell with a battery electric drive combine the battery electric drive with a small IC engine. You can get back some of you investment off the hydrogen setup.

My final point, if you're building battery electric drive trains, you have an in-house source of e-axles. Build some state of the art plugin hybrids and REEVs with them.

100%. You get it.

TonyKfromIndiana · 2025-08-12T19:05:34-0700

cygnus said:
You’re aware that Dodge, Jeep, and Ram are primarily enthusiast brands - specifically, ICE enthusiasts.

Proof - the Charger EV and Wagoner S EV have totally and completely flopped, from a sales perspective.

cygnus said:
Have you ever looked at a Profit and Loss statement? Do you know how many Pentastar Challengers and Chargers you have to sell to equal the profit of a single Hellcat? Yes, there's room for multiple powertrains in a single platform, but enthusiasts generate the majority of profits for a vehicle.

I noticed you've gone when it comes to the BILLIONS in EV losses that have been incurred by Ford, GM, and STLA.

cygnus said:
I'll answer it with a thought exercise. AMD makes a number of Zen 5 chips for consumer PCs. Which of those chips do you think they make the majority of their profit on - the volume leaders for entry level PCs, or the X3D chips for gamers?

It's the same thing.

Nevermind what keeps the doors open, and pays for the R&D, which is volume. Dodge isn't Ferrari.

Ryan · 2025-08-12T19:51:01-0700

cygnus said:
I'm not going to share granular trade secret information to prove my point because you don't understand basic business and economics - sorry. I've painted the picture in broad strokes which subsequently tracks across other industries, products, and lines of business, of which I gave a specific example (AMD).

Don't you work at a dealership or something? Go ask the sales manager.

No, I don’t work at a dealership. I’m in product development.

There’s no need to be a jerk. You are making claims you can’t back up. Understood.

cygnus · 2025-08-12T20:08:02-0700

Ryan said:
No, I don’t work at a dealership. I’m in product development.

There’s no need to be a jerk. You are making claims you can’t back up. Understood.

You work in product development? Yeah, and I play short stop for the Tigers

cygnus · 2025-08-12T20:09:02-0700

TonyKfromIndiana said:
Nevermind what keeps the doors open, and pays for the R&D, which is volume. Dodge isn't Ferrari.

90% of Big 3 EBIT, going back the last 30 years, is almost entirely generated by full size trucks, SUVs, and commercial vehicle sales.

Up until crossovers, there was volume in sedans, the volume for which has subsequently tapered off. But even in sedans / mid size crossovers, the profit (unless you're Toyota) is small. The point being - specialization in vehicle segments that are already setup for profit is the way to go.

Did you catch when GM announced increased Escalade V production? Gee, it's like the bet on V8s is a tried and true way to mint money - https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/17/gm-cadillac-escalade-v-series-production.html

Have you noticed the first thing to come back once Tim walked into CTC was the rebirth of SRT? Again, V8s.

Ryan · 2025-08-13T04:34:43-0700

cygnus said:
You work in product development? Yeah, and I play short stop for the Tigers

Product development, but not in the automotive industry clearly.

TripleT · 2025-08-13T04:42:41-0700

Ryan said:
Product development, but not in the automotive industry clearly.

Dumb Engineers don't know squat.

....... I am no longer in the Automotive Industry as of April.... So I don't know anything anymore..... still can do math and look at sales numbers. V8 cars is now a small Niche. Trucks are increasingly shrinking mostly supported by HD volume in that GM and Ford still use V8 oil burners.

While unless one is blind the Electric conversion marches on.

That said it has been market driven, the V8 should and is now allowed to phase out naturally at least for 2 more years.

The problem is that assertion that V8 is that only solution when it never was the cash flow solution. It was a Traffic Solution. There are other Traffic solutions as long as the marketed. The reality is 97.5% people who buy new vehicles never move the plastic cover, the only reason they know the have a Hemi (it is not) and that it has 8 Cylinders is the marketing literature.

The issue is Hemi is now a boat anchor to progress and to the company moving forward. If one doesn't think this a issue and being at tops level of that company your are in denial.

(And lets make a distinction the Hemi is the Eagle ..... Apache is smaller volume and more niche.... and Hellcat is the Hellcat a increasingly smaller Niche. The argument for the Apache is pretty small, the Hellcat should be one of the primary SRT engines and move on Just like the Ford V8s. The traffic powertrains)

HEMI® Takeover: Dodge Shocks Media with V8-Only 2026 Durango Lineup