Fiat Chrysler, PSA in merger talks, WSJ says

[Bili]

And it will be even faster. The german government just doubled the incentives for EVs to 6,000€.
Ford and GM are screwed in a few years. They're way behind everyone else in electrification.

For cars bellow 40k euros and all after VW has introduced their ID3. No wonder why they did it.

And for PHEV cars it's 4500 euros.

I'm not fan of this. And when Germans do it you know for whom it is.

 

[pumadog]

Fortunately it's capped at 40,000 €. It's not so funny if tax payers have to sponsor the poser cars for the wealthy. Of course every government protects the local industry.
Fiat 500e and the Jeep Plugins will benefit.

 

[Deckard Cain]

For cars bellow 40k euros and all after VW has introduced their ID3. No wonder why they did it.

And for PHEV cars it's 4500 euros.

I'm not fan of this. And when Germans do it you know for whom it is.

They have to react to Tesla. But this will also benefit the e208 and e-Corsa.

 

[Muther]

They had the perfect platform, dart platform would have been perfect if they still had the car around since the 200 had an awd option the dart could have had one easily too. The engine side of it came years too late. The 2.0t would have most likely been the engine of choice for that and would have worked great

The Dart simply had to go. There was no way around it. It was taking up factory production space, and selling for half the profits. So, Chrysler put something in its factory that sold more vehicles, for more money, at higher margins. Sad to see sedans go, but sedans are niche now. Charger trades largely on its brawn and muscular image. If Dart had something going for it other than bread and butter, it may still be around.

 

[mopar22]

The Dart simply had to go. There was no way around it. It was taking up factory production space, and selling for half the profits. So, Chrysler put something in its factory that sold more vehicles, for more money, at higher margins. Sad to see sedans go, but sedans are niche now. Charger trades largely on its brawn and muscular image. If Dart had something going for it other than bread and butter, it may still be around.

Never said it didn't need to go, just that they had the platform already for a car and gave reasons as to why there wasn't an srt for it at the time

 

[Deckard Cain]

The Dart platform still exists. They have everything they need to make compact sedans and midsize sedans. They don't do it because there's no profitable case to do them nowadays.
It's disappointing but the sedan lovers are the minority nowadays.
But that has nothing to do with this topic, so can we get back to it please?

I'm interested to know what factories are in biggest risk of closure if/after the merger goes through.

 

[Bili]

Dart? I think that its platform (CUSW) is an overkill for a compact/C segment car which is not a premium brand car. In addition to this it can accommodate a V6 engine. Who is using naturally aspirated V6 in a compact/C segment car? It's even hard to find in a midsize/D segment car.

Speaking about platform/architecture commonalization. In a case where merger is approved I can see number of platforms slashed on both sides. Some PSA and some FCA platforms will cease to exist. As we know there is no PSA platform which can accommodate AWD. In my opinion it's a bih obstacle for North American market but even for some parts of Europe and above all for usage for Jeep brand. So they must rework PSA EMP2 platform or abandon it and use FCA Small Wide instead. Small Wide is used by FCA all over the world.
PSA CMP will stay. IMO it's too important for non premium European B/subcompact segment and some cheaper C/compact segment cars.
Giorgio will stay. I have no doubt about it. It's too important both for premium and luxury European brands but also for Jeep and very likely for a Dodge brand.
In addition to this there are LCV and BOF platforms. They aren't going anywhere.

 

[sjon]

The Dart platform still exists. They have everything they need to make compact sedans and midsize sedans. They don't do it because there's no profitable case to do them nowadays.
It's disappointing but the sedan lovers are the minority nowadays.
But that has nothing to do with this topic, so can we get back to it please?

I'm interested to know what factories are in biggest risk of closure if/after the merger goes through.

First to go should be Vauxhall UK, what with Brexit and import tax on parts.
? i would say.

For the other plants it depends how good looking their new models are going to be.
PSA has been strong in putting out new sexy looking cars.
FCA Europe not so much.

You need something that gets people talking and gong to a dealer to buy.
Some cars in high demand will keep all the factories going, but can they pull it off?

I think they can.

 

[sjon]

Dart? I think that its platform (CUSW) is an overkill for a compact/C segment car which is not a premium brand car. In addition to this it can accommodate a V6 engine. Who is using naturally aspirated V6 in a compact/C segment car? It's even hard to find in a midsize/D segment car.

Speaking about platform/architecture commonalization. In a case where merger is approved I can see number of platforms slashed on both sides. Some PSA and some FCA platforms will cease to exist. As we know there is no PSA platform which can accommodate AWD. In my opinion it's a bih obstacle for North American market but even for some parts of Europe and above all for usage for Jeep brand. So they must rework PSA EMP2 platform or abandon it and use FCA Small Wide instead. Small Wide is used by FCA all over the world.
PSA CMP will stay. IMO it's too important for non premium European B/subcompact segment and some cheaper C/compact segment cars.
Giorgio will stay. I have no doubt about it. It's too important both for premium and luxury European brands but also for Jeep and very likely for a Dodge brand.
In addition to this there are LCV and BOF platforms. They aren't going anywhere.

What do you mean by: In addition to this there are LCV and BOF platforms.

Could we have some pictures and reasons why, please.

 

[Bili]

What do you mean by: In addition to this there are LCV and BOF platforms.

Could we have some pictures and reasons why, please.

Some LCV (light commercial vehicles) products like Fiat Ducato and its PSA twins have unique platform. I don't see it changing.

In US there are BOF (body on frame) like Ram products or Jeep Wrangler and Renegade.

 

[pumadog]

I'm interested to know what factories are in biggest risk of closure if/after the merger goes through.

As for Opel/Vauxhall: The UK plants. Even without the merger: Brexit, on an island, currency risks. Opel Eisenach has just been renovated for Grandland X, Rüsselsheim is Opel's home base, very important for the image as a German brand. (UK plants might matter for the Vauxhall image, but that effect should be smaller.)

What about South America? Is the rather new Argo platform "Small MP-1" really something independent from Europe? Or a variant of Small Wide?

@Bili I guess Renegade was a typo for Gladiator.

 

[pumadog]

CEO Carlos Tavares also said he does not see the need to scrap any brands within the new PSA-Fiat Chrysler entity.
The two carmaker groups are targeting annual cost savings of 3.7 billion euros ($4.09 billion) as part of a planned merger unveiled at the end of October, which will create the world's fourth-largest automaker with 8.7 million in annual vehicle sales.
Tavares also said the two groups are willing to make all necessary concessions to get a green light from the European Union. "Given all the necessary regulatory approvals that need to be granted, such a deal cannot be closed in less than a year," Tavares said, adding however that he expects to seal a "binding deal" in the coming weeks.

Source: marketscreener.com

I guess for new shared projects they wouldn't have to wait until the merger is finally done. Even if that failed, they could handle the projects as cooperations after all.

 

[AlfaCuda]

Source: marketscreener.com

I guess for new shared projects they wouldn't have to wait until the merger is finally done. Even if that failed, they could handle the projects as cooperations after all.

Only the Germans may try to put a spanner in the works. But I think it should be ok...

From the above it seems that Tavares likes all the brands in the portfolio.... so far he has not had the opportunity of working with premium or truly sporting brands before. Something he must be relishing to get on with.

 

[Bili]

Source: marketscreener.com

I guess for new shared projects they wouldn't have to wait until the merger is finally done. Even if that failed, they could handle the projects as cooperations after all.

Yes, year at least... But recently some deals were approved in less than 6 months. It all depends on regulatory bodies. The only opposing side IMO could be Germany. Why? VAG would not be the biggest car maker on EU market.

Deal is not yet negotiated. In my opinion when it is, and it's soon, they will start some joint projects immediately.

But yet I can't see new Alfas or Jeeps on PSA bones.

I can see Fiat using CMP, maybe even for 3 cars. Let's say new Grande Punto, B crossover and new Tipo. Why not? New C4 is slated for CMP.
Engines currently in use on CMP are 1.2 with and without turbo and 1.5 diesel. Power levels 1.2 NA 75 PS with turbo at 100, 130 and 155 PS. Diesel at 100 or 130 PS.
In addition to this CMP is a BEV platform but not PHEV.

I don't know what is PSA doing on MHEV front. Last I've heard something was a new transmission made by one Chinese company.

 

[Deckard Cain]

There may also be problems with Trump because of Dongfeng. Hopefully not.

 

[AlfaCuda]

s 1.2 NA 75 PS

Stunned to see a NA engine in production

 

[Bili]

Stunned to see a NA engine in production

For B segment hatchbacks all have NA engine as a base one.

 

[pumadog]

There may also be problems with Trump because of Dongfeng. Hopefully not.

Does Trump really have much of a say in this? Dongfeng will have 6%, is that critical?

But yet I can't see new Alfas or Jeeps on PSA bones.

In addition to this CMP is a BEV platform but not PHEV.

I don't know what is PSA doing on MHEV front. Last I've heard something was a new transmission made by one Chinese company.

I could imagine Alfa's B crossover on CMP. It's planned to get a BEV version. And a hypothetical Mito successor. CMP should be better than SCCS. What should they use instead for a car that has BEV and IC variants? Or do you think FCA's new BEV platform fits into Small Wide?

There's a recent (German) interview with Tavares where he calls "normal" HEVs as outdated with the arrival of PHEVs and BEVs.

 

[Bili]

@pumadog

AFAIK BEV was planned for Small Wide Jeeps in China. So...

The question is. Is it a Q2 competitor or yet another blunder.
In this segment size is not all. But than... DS3 Crossoback is smaller than new 2008. Both are on CMP

 

[pumadog]

Well, Alfa can offer a Q2 in any case. Maybe no Q4. ?