[CLOSED] So reading that "other site" lets talk the Blown straight 6

[James.A]

Look at where plant money is being spent to see where new products are coming from.... New plant in Detriot..... and then Winsor.... it really isn't that complicated. The new Ls are going to share build points with the old.

The basis for people thinking there are delays is because it is reported as such. "Wait a little longer" or "pushed back" means delayed beyond what was initially reported as planned, official or not. No offence to insiders or the company. Insider is taken as gospel because they are high respected.

 

[Mopar426]

Is this engine even a sure thing? Someone said proof was on linkedin but all there is over there is 4 cyl references. "They" also state it'll be a 2.9L and that's a Euro thing that doesn't apply over here. Also, doesn't FCA NA have bigger fish to fry than making a brand new 6 cyl when they already have the Pentastar? IMO it's an Alfa SUV engine and we've learned how much they like to share those parts and components with the American brands.

 

[Blown7]

Times could all be changing and maybe the powers that be don't have a real roadmap on which way to turn.. nothing lasts forever..maybe we'll never see anything new

Top auto executives are privately very worried about the state of auto sales

Despite the bullish speeches at the New York auto show, there's a sense of growing concern among industry leaders and analysts.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Cody's Car Conundrum]

Times could all be changing and maybe the powers that be don't have a real roadmap on which way to turn.. nothing lasts forever..maybe we'll never see anything new

Top auto executives are privately very worried about the state of auto sales

Despite the bullish speeches at the New York auto show, there's a sense of growing concern among industry leaders and analysts.

www.cnbc.com

You have seen new products. The JL Wrangler, DT 1500, Pacifica and Pacifica Hybrid, the Gladiator, the Compass, every Alfa Romeo product beyond the 4C, the 1.3-liter Turbo in the Compass and Renegade, and the E-torque system (engine and all). Some of the most important stuff might not be here yet but it's not like absolutely nothing has come out of FCA. I understand we're all anxious and annoyed that some of the new product has been delayed again but relax. It's 2019, we're darn near the start of delicious new product!

I know we haven't seen any mules or test vehicles in public, but no one saw the Ford GT prototypes when Ford decided to make a new GT (as far as I know). Perhaps entertaining the idea that they're working on things "in-house" before taking their future product to the streets would be a good, positive outlook on the situation.

 

[Cody's Car Conundrum]

Is this engine even a sure thing? Someone said proof was on linkedin but all there is over there is 4 cyl references. "They" also state it'll be a 2.9L and that's a Euro thing that doesn't apply over here. Also, doesn't FCA NA have bigger fish to fry than making a brand new 6 cyl when they already have the Pentastar? IMO it's an Alfa SUV engine and we've learned how much they like to share those parts and components with the American brands.

"They" who stated the engine would be a 2.9L? I'm not saying it couldn't be, but I thought it was said it was going to be 3.x-liter engine.

Honestly, it's a "darned if you do, darned if you don't" situation. If FCA made new cars with the existing Pentastar, people would just complain about how FCA needs to work on some new engines. If they work on engines that'll go into future products (potentially at the cost of delaying said product), people would complain that the product isn't coming fast enough. Which they are as we speak. Furthermore, this engine (IIRC) is supposed to replace the 5.7 HEMI. Which means it'll also get a performance version. I don't remember the exact reason why this couldn't be done to the current Pentastar, but I think cost or design constraints had something to do with it. Or it's a combination of the two: The engine design complicates things which, in turn, makes the cost of creating a high-performance Pentastar higher. Again, I'm very fuzzy on those details.

"Wouldn't it still be cheaper to make a high-performance Pentastar though?" In the short-term it might be, but the engine is getting a bit long in the tooth. Creating a new engine with performance intentions from the get-go is probably less expensive in the long run though. There would be less adapting and changes because the engine will have those capabilities for higher power outright. Additionally, it's a new engine from FCA. Assuming everything goes well, we could have a more efficient, more powerful, more upgradeable, and more competitive engine. That isn't to say the Pentastar isn't any of those things, of course.

FCA needs to continue to build (and perhaps "repair") their reputation. They can't afford to mess things up. I have the same fears that by the time they come to market everyone else will have moved on, but I prefer them taking their time to work out the kinks instead of rushing a product to launch and then trying to make up for that mistake later. That's what happened with the Dart.

 

[James.A]

"They" who stated the engine would be a 2.9L? I'm not saying it couldn't be, but I thought it was said it was going to be 3.x-liter engine.

Honestly, it's a "darned if you do, darned if you don't" situation. If FCA made new cars with the existing Pentastar, people would just complain about how FCA needs to work on some new engines. If they work on engines that'll go into future products (potentially at the cost of delaying said product), people would complain that the product isn't coming fast enough. Which they are as we speak. Furthermore, this engine (IIRC) is supposed to replace the 5.7 HEMI. Which means it'll also get a performance version. I don't remember the exact reason why this couldn't be done to the current Pentastar, but I think cost or design constraints had something to do with it. Or it's a combination of the two: The engine design complicates things which, in turn, makes the cost of creating a high-performance Pentastar higher. Again, I'm very fuzzy on those details.

"Wouldn't it still be cheaper to make a high-performance Pentastar though?" In the short-term it might be, but the engine is getting a bit long in the tooth. Creating a new engine with performance intentions from the get-go is probably less expensive in the long run though. There would be less adapting and changes because the engine will have those capabilities for higher power outright. Additionally, it's a new engine from FCA. Assuming everything goes well, we could have a more efficient, more powerful, more upgradeable, and more competitive engine. That isn't to say the Pentastar isn't any of those things, of course.

FCA needs to continue to build (and perhaps "repair") their reputation. They can't afford to mess things up. I have the same fears that by the time they come to market everyone else will have moved on, but I prefer them taking their time to work out the kinks instead of rushing a product to launch and then trying to make up for that mistake later. That's what happened with the Dart.

That's all fine and well, nobody said that they shouldn't invest in the future and take their time at that. But they are investing in the current cars and it can be argued that it's a waste. We can wait a year or two longer for the next cars but without even a lite refresh to the current? Why not? 7 years with the same look (Trickle down looks making every trim identitcal isn't a refresh)? Because instead of doing a little tweak to the nose on the volume sellers they did it to the 40k+ models with widebody kits etc. Further, if the rumors are true, all this investment in a muscle image only to ditch the affordable V8 in the next car and go with Euro-style powertrains... I don't see current investment sensibility in that (if that s actually happening in 2022 or whenever). And no, a T6 is not muscle. As powerful and grand as it may be it's not muscle. Which is prefectly fine and even an exciting prospect (the SRT rumors are titillating). There are plenty of ways to look at things that aren't apologetics and are perfectly valid. Dissent is patriotic

 

[Blown7]

Well for me I'm getting long in the tooth myself and I like to see new designs before I am retired and can't afford them. Time is great when you're young....when your old time moves much quicker.
So my argument is...
I can make one large purchase for a vehicle in the next couple of years. .after that it doesn't matter what FCA brings out..I won't be a buyer because of loss of cash flow.
I'm into muscle and Jeeps so that's what I care about..not new Alfa's ....no offense to any others.

 

[TripleT]

The basis for people thinking there are delays is because it is reported as such. "Wait a little longer" or "pushed back" means delayed beyond what was initially reported as planned, official or not. No offence to insiders or the company. Insider is taken as gospel because they are high respected.

That is complete Nonsense....... the company has not announced anything. NOTHING HAS BEEN DELAYED. If we want this site to be like Allpar then this continues where nothing is posted because the company and the insiders are ripped because bit a pieces are shared and don't always come to pass or the time line originally rumored doesn't come to pass. Clock doesn't start clicking until the capital is approved. Less is going to be shared if this nonsense continues. Delay in a rumored launch date .... IS NOT A DELAY it just isn't. QUIT

 

[TripleT]

This Thread is just become the complaint thread like you will find on Allpar.... DO we really need another site for people to B&C about things they don't have a clue about?

 

[James.A]

That is complete Nonsense....... the company has not announced anything. NOTHING HAS BEEN DELAYED. If we want this sight to be like Allpar then this continues where nothing is posted because the company and the insiders are ripped because bit a pieces are shared and don't always come to pass or the time line originally rumored doesn't come to pass. Clock doesn't start clicking until the capital is approved. Less is going to be shared if this nonsense continues. Delay in a rumored launch date .... IS NOT A DELAY it just isn't. QUIT

On Allpar, insiders (NOT ALL) would angrily rebuke you if you didn't swallow exactly what they were serving. "It's been said multiple times" that xyz would be happening is the benign form of response you'd get, and you'd get called lazy for not reading through 100+ pages of thread to see what was said or even accused of intentionally spreading false info if you speculated on whether their info was likely, because their word was the end all be all, which is fine, they're the insiders and we love them! So insiders info was enforced as gospel, it did come caveats SOMETIMES as being speculative. I remember posting that maybe the 5.7 won't get replaced right away with the I6 and got my head ripped off because insiders had stated multiple times that it would. Or when others were sceptical that the L platform would actually be replaced by the G they'd get nasty rebukes... kind of like yours right now... But I refer back to the manner in which "delays" are reported like "we'll be waiting longer than expected" etc, that would read as "delays" to anyone. If insiders are so adamant about the validity of their content that it's as good as an announcement from the company to the layman on a forum. Don't blame us.

Also, if we say that the company hasn't announced anything and the current cars are getting long in the tooth and they need to work on updates, we get angry replies that the company is working on things. Then when those things don't manifest and we say something about delays we get your reply. It's really an unfair demon-ization... no pun intended

 

[James.A]

On Allpar, insiders (NOT ALL) would angrily rebuke you if you didn't swallow exactly what they were serving. "It's been said multiple times" that xyz would be happening is the begin form of response, and you'd get called lazy for not reading through 100+ pages of thread to see what was said or even accused of intentionally spreading false info if you speculated on whether their info was likely, because their word was the end all be all, which is fine, they're the insiders and we love them! So insiders info was enforced as gospel, it did come caveats SOMETIMES as being speculative. I remember posting that maybe the 5.7 won't get replaced right away with the I6 and got my head ripped off because insiders had stated multiple times that it would. Or when others were sceptical that the L platform would actually be replaced by the G and would get nasty rebukes... kind of like yours right now... But I refer back to the manner in which "delays" are reported like "we'll be waiting longer than expected" etc, that would read as "delays" to anyone.

Also, if we say that the company hasn't announced anything and the current cars are getting long in the tooth and they need to work on updates, we get angry replies that the company is working on things. Then when those things don't manifest and we say something about delays we get your reply. It's really an unfair demon-ization... no pun intended

Also, speculating and debating and moaning and celebrating is what enthusiasts do. Enthusiasts are passionate and passion generates impassioned POV's. There is nothing wrong with it. What is the point of a forum then? Forums are two-way streets as far as laymen and insiders go. The alternative for those that can't handle dissenting opinions are articles with no comments but where is the fun and passion in that? And in defence of Allpar, this forum is dead. The admins are considering killing it bc it's dead and not worth the cost. On Allpar, at least our moaning and discussions keep the place alive, jeez.

 

[Rustydodge]

There are about a dozen threads on allpar complaining about the same things. Do we really need a new thread on a different site to start the same discussion? Or can those discussions just carry on over there?

I'm not sure how you can make a sane argument that Dodge's investment in current cars has been a waste.

Back on topic, All indications are that there will still be V8s around after the rumored tornado comes. A 3.0ish turbo six is a welcome addition if the rumors are true that it will outperform the competition's boosted V6s.

 

[James.A]

There are about a dozen threads on allpar complaining about the same things. Do we really need a new thread on a different site to start the same discussion? Or can those discussions just carry on over there?

I'm not sure how you can make a sane argument that Dodge's investment in current cars has been a waste.

Back on topic, All indications are that there will still be V8s around after the rumored tornado comes. A 3.0ish turbo six is a welcome addition if the rumors are true that it will outperform the competition's boosted V6s.

I explained it if you read it. They're pushing the big muscle image only to go Euro in 3 years? IF thats the case I don't see how it worth ignoring the volume trims that need a refresh to push expensive add ons that wont match the image in a few years.

What I've read is that the V8 is going upmarket and the I6 is replacing the affordable V8, hence the Euro comparo which is contrary to the current marketing. I'm sure the T6 could be awesome, I hope it is, I just like an affordable V8 that can compete with the 5.0 price wise (md 30's).

 

[Muther]

It’s not a delay. Folks around here see it as a delay, but it’s not a delay. Feel free to say it is delayed, though. It won’t change a thing.

Things change inside the industry and companies must adapt. A business to plan is an active, living, breathing, adapting thing. It must change. It must grow and adapt as the business climate changes. To plow ahead with the old business plan, in-spite of a significantly changed business environment is the old (GM) way of doing things. Nobody wants that.

The Tornado six will likely use the same pistons as the four. That means the most likely displacement for it will be three liters. That is logic, not insider info.

It will replace the 5.7 in some applications. That is ONE of its purposes. The 5.7 is simply NOT the right engine to take Ram and Jeep global. That must be understood. It will likely NOT replace it in other applications. There is nothing wrong with the 5.7. Fine engine. It will likely continue for a long time, at least until the business case for it no longer exists.

From what I have heard, the Tornado 6 will not be anywhere near the 650hp of the Ford GT turbo6. That is 6.4/6.2 territory. I have Been assured that one version will be significantly more powerful than the 5.7, and that version could even challenge the 6.4. Therefore, by extension, it is logical to assume a boost will come for the 6.4.

All of this is not the juicy news. The juicy news is whatever the heck SRT has been working on. Has anyone else noticed how mum they have gotten lately? Onnews is good news as they say.

 

[TripleT]

I explained it if you read it. They're pushing the big muscle image only to go Euro in 3 years? IF thats the case I don't see how it worth ignoring the volume trims that need a refresh.

What I've read is that the V8 is going upmarket and the I6 is replacing the affordable V8, hence the Euro comparo which is contrary to the current marketing. I'm sure the T6 could be awesome, I hope it is, I just like an affordable V8 that can compete with the 5.0 price wise (md 30's).

Performance Cars will have the V8 option... the straight six fits well with the Jeeps..... Calling something Long in the tooth because it had common build points is silly todays Charger shares very little with 06 other then where it goes down the line. Frankly it the best and most Potent every made. Next year it will have the proper tire to match the powertrain. The idea that there is rush to replace it when it has evolved to be best ever is false. Its not like last year was a slow year for new product

 

[James.A]

It’s not a delay. Folks around here see it as a delay, but it’s not a delay. Feel free to say it is delayed, though. It won’t change a thing.

Things change inside the industry and companies must adapt. A business to plan is an active, living, breathing, adapting thing. It must change. It must grow and adapt as the business climate changes. To plow ahead with the new business plan, inspire of a significantly changed business environment is the old (GM) way of doing things.

Fretting about a non-exultant delay is nothing more than searching for things to complain about because somebody’s expectations weren’t met.

The Tornado six will likely use the same pistons as the four. That means the most likely displacement for it will be three liters. That is logic, no insider info.

It will replace the 5.7 in some applications. That is ONE of its purposes. The 5.7 is simply NOT the right engine to take Ram and Jeep global. That must be understood. It will likely NOT replace it in other applications. There is nothing wrong with the 5.7. Fine engine. It will likely continue for a long time, at least until the business case for it no longer exists.

From what I have heard, the Tornado 6 will not be anywhere near the 650hp of the Ford GT turbo6. That is 6.4/6.2 territory. I have Been assured that one version will be significantly more powerful than the 5.7, and that version could even challenge the 6.4. Therefore, by extension, it is logical to assume a boost will come for the 6.4.

All of this is not the juicy news. The juicy news is whatever the heck SRT has been working on. Has anyone else noticed how mum they have gotten lately? Onnews is good news as they say.

Thanks for this. It makes a lot more sense. Love it!

 

[Rustydodge]

I explained it if you read it. They're pushing the big muscle image only to go Euro in 3 years? IF thats the case I don't see how it worth ignoring the volume trims that need a refresh to push expensive add ons that wont match the image in a few years.

What I've read is that the V8 is going upmarket and the I6 is replacing the affordable V8, hence the Euro comparo which is contrary to the current marketing. I'm sure the T6 could be awesome, I hope it is, I just like an affordable V8 that can compete with the 5.0 price wise (md 30's).

If that's your primary reasoning that the investment has been a wast then that is a little short sited, ignoring the positives that have come from the investments. Also volume trims have enjoyed some trickle down from their more premium brethren. And you can't really act like going Euro in 3 yrs (if true) is a short time frame while also complaining that waiting 3 yrs for a rumored new product is a long time frame. Which is it? I don't think Dodge is going to abandon the performance brand image they've established in NA,

FCA needs to adjust as the market adjusts. That will have an impact on products.

We already have an affordable V8 that competes with the 5.0, and performance V8s that smash anything else in the competitive price point. If the tornado does what it is rumored to then I see little cause for concern. Until FCA makes the official announcements for certain what models an affordable V8 is being dropped from, we're kinda wasting our breath.

I own 2 5.7 hemis. In the ram it is a must. In the durango it is not IMO. It will all depend on what FCA does in each segment. They've proved to have a pretty good feel for the NA market recently

 

[James.A]

If that's your primary reasoning that the investment has been a wast then that is a little short sited, ignoring the positives that have come from the investments. Also volume trims have enjoyed some trickle down from their more premium brethren. And you can't really act like going Euro in 3 yrs (if true) is a short time frame while also complaining that waiting 3 yrs for a rumored new product is a long time frame. Which is it? I don't think Dodge is going to abandon the performance brand image they've established in NA,

FCA needs to adjust as the market adjusts. That will have an impact on products.

We already have an affordable V8 that competes with the 5.0, and performance V8s that smash anything else in the competitive price point. If the tornado does what it is rumored to then I see little cause for concern. Until FCA makes the official announcements for certain what models an affordable V8 is being dropped from, we're kinda wasting our breath.

I own 2 5.7 hemis. In the ram it is a must. In the durango it is not IMO. It will all depend on what FCA does in each segment. They've proved to have a pretty good feel for the NA market recently

Seems you didn't read my post. I didn't say we don't now have 5.0 competitive powertrains, I said from the rumors we won't in the next gen, with an I6 competing with the 5.0 and V8's pushed upmarket. However, the above posts imply its not necessarily the case. Also, I said 3 years is a while to wait for the new products while leaving the current the same. Trickledown is not updated, it's trickledown. The argument (not mine) is that 3 years is not far off and so a lite refresh is not justified. So I'm turning that over, is it justified to spend money on $6k widebody packages as PR for the brand only to drop that image in 3 years (if 3 years is not a log time?). I'd say refresh the volume sellers. I stick to my first point, 3 years is long enough to justify a refresh.

But I digress, Triple T and Muther explained things really well and I'll leave it with that.

 

[Blown7]

Again thank you all insiders for some interesting content and schooling. Is there capacity in the US to build such an engine or would that have to be built somewhere else?

I just wish everyone could own and enjoy a Trackhawk as I do. Its a great vehicle power wise and would love to see more performance engines in all vehicles.

The blown six looks like a potent unit if it shows up.

 

[Ryan]

I’m closing this. This site was supposed to be an escape from the constant complaints, not just another place to post them.