Alfa Romeo Tonale mule caught on the road

[Deckard Cain]

The 3008 Hybrid4 offers 300hp with a 13.2 kW battery and a WLTP range of 59km.
The same for the Opel Grandland Hybrid 4. I would also bash the crap performance of the Tonale PHEV considering their equivalent offers.

A well tuned Tonale with that drivetrain option would make for a great performance oriented version with good emissions performance. I know you prefer ICE-exclusive models, but those are on the way out in Europe and a performance version of a compact SUV can hardly be compared to a Ferrari.

 

[Bili]

No, Pug PHEV powertrain are not performance in a sense of Alfa Romeo performance.

And this something which concern s me with PSA.

Sergio understood it. Alfa is about performance which comes through driving experience, both corner speed and steering feel.

Corner speed and feeling could be improved by lower weight and suspension typology.

Pug doesn't offer it.

Capisci?

 

[AlexB]

The 3008 Hybrid4 offers 300hp with a 13.2 kW battery and a WLTP range of 59km.
The same for the Opel Grandland Hybrid 4. I would also bash the crap performance of the Tonale PHEV considering their equivalent offers.

A well tuned Tonale with that drivetrain option would make for a great performance oriented version with good emissions performance. I know you prefer ICE-exclusive models, but those are on the way out in Europe and a performance version of a compact SUV can hardly be compared to a Ferrari.

And even with Ferrari, John Elkann stated the future is Electric.

 

[AlexB]

No, Pug PHEV powertrain are not performance in a sense of Alfa Romeo performance.

And this something which concern s me with PSA.

Sergio understood it. Alfa is about performance which comes through driving experience, both corner speed and steering feel.

Corner speed and feeling could be improved by lower weight and suspension typology.

Pug doesn't offer it.

Capisci?

Alfa positioning by Carlos & French company does leave a large gap between Maserati and Alfa that one could park Jaguar or BMW or Mercedes in the Stellantis lineup.

 

[cygnus]

No, Pug PHEV powertrain are not performance in a sense of Alfa Romeo performance.

And this something which concern s me with PSA.

Sergio understood it. Alfa is about performance which comes through driving experience, both corner speed and steering feel.

Corner speed and feeling could be improved by lower weight and suspension typology.

Pug doesn't offer it.

Capisci?

I don't know if global sales demonstrates that consumers really care about corner speed and steering to justify the investment.

Tesla is stealing sales from Alfa/BMW/Audi/Mercedes/Lexus. Yes, it's a completely different kind of product, but this is business, sales are the only thing that matter.

 

[Deckard Cain]

No, Pug PHEV powertrain are not performance in a sense of Alfa Romeo performance.

And this something which concern s me with PSA.

Sergio understood it. Alfa is about performance which comes through driving experience, both corner speed and steering feel.

Corner speed and feeling could be improved by lower weight and suspension typology.

Pug doesn't offer it.

Capisci?

Now you are just moving the goalposts. You specifically complained that there are no performance PHEVs, to be an alternative to 2.0 performance version. I showed you that PSA has one that provides the power and torque figures for that, plus enough battery capacity for low emission numbers.

Now you are talking about handling.
This is a FWD compact SUV. How does this square in your mind with what an Alfa should be?? If we go by there, then I will argue that the Tonale shouldn't even be launched because SUVs shouldn't be considered true Alfas.
IMO, if they want to make a more powerful variant of the Tonale I really do hope they try to use this PHEV system from the 3008 for it instead of a 2.0 engine. Will it be heavier and probably handle a bit worse than what an Alfa should? I don't believe most people will care, since it will then have access to plenty of fiscal bonuses and that will ensure its commercial success, while the 2.0 wouldn't have access to this.

"Alfa feel" is not enough to justify the continued existence of a brand if not enough commercially successful models are launched. Sergio failed to ensure Alfa's survival as a genuine italian brand by failing to do that. If you want to complain about the new Alfa's probably not being "true" Alfas (lets just gloss over the FWD Alfas from the 90s and 00s), complain about Sergio launching models and trying to implement a product strategy that did not make commercial sense.
To me, the launch of the Giulia does not absolve him of all the mismanagement and neglect of the italian brands during his tenure.

 

[Bili]

And even with Ferrari, John Elkann stated the future is Electric.

Yes, but Ferrari will have top notch tech as always while the same can't be said for Alfa.

For example what will differentiate Alfa from Pug when it comes to battery tech?

Will Pug be one generation behind? I don't think so.

Alfa positioning by Carlos & French company does leave a large gap between Maserati and Alfa that one could park Jaguar or BMW or Mercedes in the Stellantis lineup.

Alfa's positioning is at BMW and Audi level in terms of pricing. You can see it on official documents.

So no space for some Jaguar.

They can kill Alfa in that case.... Or kill Jaguar.

 

[Bili]

Now you are just moving the goalposts. You specifically complained that there are no performance PHEVs, to be an alternative to 2.0 performance version. I showed you that PSA has one that provides the power and torque figures for that, plus enough battery capacity for low emission numbers.

Now you are talking about handling.
This is a FWD compact SUV. How does this square in your mind with what an Alfa should be?? If we go by there, then I will argue that the Tonale shouldn't even be launched because SUVs shouldn't be considered true Alfas.
IMO, if they want to make a more powerful variant of the Tonale I really do hope they try to use this PHEV system from the 3008 for it instead of a 2.0 engine. Will it be heavier and probably handle a bit worse than what an Alfa should? I don't believe most people will care, since it will then have access to plenty of fiscal bonuses and that will ensure its commercial success, while the 2.0 wouldn't have access to this.

"Alfa feel" is not enough to justify the continued existence of a brand if not enough commercially successful models are launched. Sergio failed to ensure Alfa's survival as a genuine italian brand by failing to do that. If you want to complain about the new Alfa's probably not being "true" Alfas (lets just gloss over the FWD Alfas from the 90s and 00s), complain about Sergio launching models and trying to implement a product strategy that did not make commercial sense.
To me, the launch of the Giulia does not absolve him of all the mismanagement and neglect of the italian brands during his tenure.

I was very specific in my criteria. I'm not moving it.

It's very, very specific. The term of performance PHEV and I when have an example, not one, before your post.

Stelvio denies your SUV talk.

 

[AlexB]

Yes, but Ferrari will have top notch tech as always while the same can't be said for Alfa.

For example what will differentiate Alfa from Pug when it comes to battery tech?

Will Pug be one generation behind? I don't think so.

Alfa's positioning is at BMW and Audi level in terms of pricing. You can see it on official documents.

So no space for some Jaguar.

They can kill Alfa in that case.... Or kill Jaguar.

But by staying brand below/or at “European D-segment” Carlos is leaving significant vacant global room that Maserati can’t/shouldn’t touch.

 

[AlexB]

Yes, but Ferrari will have top notch tech as always while the same can't be said for Alfa.

For example what will differentiate Alfa from Pug when it comes to battery tech?

Will Pug be one generation behind? I don't think so.

Alfa's positioning is at BMW and Audi level in terms of pricing. You can see it on official documents.

So no space for some Jaguar.

They can kill Alfa in that case.... Or kill Jaguar.

I understood what you are stating to be that no unique specs for Alfa EV power(example a different Electric motor), or things that make a Stellantis EV powertrain behave differently in Alfa because Carlos can’t appreciate those details(only focus on cost).

 

[Deckard Cain]

I was very specific in my criteria. I'm not moving it.

It's very, very specific. The term of performance PHEV and I when have an example, not one, before your post.

Stelvio denies your SUV talk.

Stelvio is RWD on a decent platform. We could argue that the Tonale is a lifted Tipo.

 

[TripleT]

Stelvio is RWD on a decent platform. We could argue that the Tonale is a lifted Tipo.

That is a massive over simplification... Phase II lightening of componentry and unique handling geometry.

 

[Bili]

That is a massive over simplification... Phase II lightening of componentry and unique handling geometry.

We'll see. I would not put much faith in it.

 

[TripleT]

We'll see. I would not put much faith in it.

Unless PEPE changed them out the tooling was in process. The cost of replacement would have been as significant punch to the development budget.

 

[Bili]

Unless PEPE changed them out the tooling was in process. The cost of replacement would have been as significant punch to the development budget.

I would not exclude that Triple M did it even before.

Dream of proper Lancia had died with Sergio I'm affraid.

 

[Deckard Cain]

With the state that Lancia is in right now, I would just kill the brand. The most important issue is how to re-implement a dealer network for the brand outside Italy.
Will it share dealer space with Alfa, or DS? Will it be in the same showroom floors as Fiats? Will they try to build a new network from scratch outside Italy? I have so many questions about that.
DS at least already has established dealer network, but it took many years to build it.

 

[jorisr]

With the state that Lancia is in right now, I would just kill the brand. The most important issue is how to re-implement a dealer network for the brand outside Italy.
Will it share dealer space with Alfa, or DS? Will it be in the same showroom floors as Fiats? Will they try to build a new network from scratch outside Italy? I have so many questions about that.
DS at least already has established dealer network, but it took many years to build it.

From what i've read about the subject in Europe we are going to get combined premium showrooms, so DS, Alfa Romeo and Lancia combined. They want to have physical showrooms in the major cities in Europe. They seem to prefer to work with dealergroups that will offer all Stellantis brands and services. I expect that this will be needed to cover entire countries for the premium brands with relatively few dedicated locations. I would expect a lot of online and remote services.

 

[AlexB]

From what i've read about the subject in Europe we are going to get combined premium showrooms, so DS, Alfa Romeo and Lancia combined. They want to have physical showrooms in the major cities in Europe. They seem to prefer to work with dealergroups that will offer all Stellantis brands and services. I expect that this will be needed to cover entire countries for the premium brands with relatively few dedicated locations. I would expect a lot of online and remote services.

I expect that too, and with the same action happening in the mass market(Peugeot-FIAT-Opel-Citroen)+ Jeep brands.
Which only raise the the whole issue of action regarding the LCV business.

 

[jorisr]

I expect that too, and with the same action happening in the mass market(Peugeot-FIAT-Opel-Citroen)+ Jeep brands.
Which only raise the the whole issue of action regarding the LCV business.

I do not expect combined showrooms for the mainstream brands. To me it makes no sense to put a Opel Corsa, Peugeot 208, Citroen C3 and a Fiat Punto in one space.
PSA/Tavares could have brought the Peugeot and Citroen brand dealernetworks together for more than 30 years and they've always kept them seperate. In my opinion for good reason. All these brands will again become/remain full line brands. If you cannot afford to have a full line of vehicles for all your brands it makes sense to combine them in one showroom, this happened to some success in the US with the CDJR dealerships.
Now in a stronger position you see FCA trying to move to seperate showrooms for Jeep. They started since 2017 with pushing for seperate Jeep showrooms in all non-rural markets. When the Wagoneer was presented they said that only dealers with seperate Jeep showrooms would be able to sell Wagoneers it was 1 of the conditions. They said at that time there allready were 600 seperate Jeep showrooms in the U.S..
I think this expansion of seperate Jeep showrooms will give room to finally get additional nameplates for Dodge, Ram and Chrysler. Jeep right now is at 10 nameplates and more are coming. CDR right now are at 9 nameplates. (Toyota 16, Ford 15, Kia 12, Chevrolet 19, Hyundai 13, Nissan 18, Honda 11, VW 9, Subaru 8)
Peugeot, Citroen, Opel and Fiat all have more than 10 different nameplates in their showroom they compete directly with each other.
You must remember that people and businesses buy an Opel Combo because it's a German car with German engineering and workmanship.
Combining them in one showroom would be the fastest way to lose a great deal of their current marketshare.
For the premium brands you are talking right now about 7 nameplates in total (4 DS, 2 Alfa, 1 Lancia). If all goes well this number will max out in 8 years in about 16 nameplates. The number of showrooms will be relatively limited and i think they will be able to give each of the 3 brands sufficient room to grow together keeping their own identity.

 

[AlexB]

I do not expect combined showrooms for the mainstream brands. To me it makes no sense to put a Opel Corsa, Peugeot 208, Citroen C3 and a Fiat Punto in one space.
PSA/Tavares could have brought the Peugeot and Citroen brand dealernetworks together for more than 30 years and they've always kept them seperate. In my opinion for good reason. All these brands will again become/remain full line brands. If you cannot afford to have a full line of vehicles for all your brands it makes sense to combine them in one showroom, this happened to some success in the US with the CDJR dealerships.
Now in a stronger position you see FCA trying to move to seperate showrooms for Jeep. They started since 2017 with pushing for seperate Jeep showrooms in all non-rural markets. When the Wagoneer was presented they said that only dealers with seperate Jeep showrooms would be able to sell Wagoneers it was 1 of the conditions. They said at that time there allready were 600 seperate Jeep showrooms in the U.S..
I think this expansion of seperate Jeep showrooms will give room to finally get additional nameplates for Dodge, Ram and Chrysler. Jeep right now is at 10 nameplates and more are coming. CDR right now are at 9 nameplates. (Toyota 16, Ford 15, Kia 12, Chevrolet 19, Hyundai 13, Nissan 18, Honda 11, VW 9, Subaru 8)
Peugeot, Citroen, Opel and Fiat all have more than 10 different nameplates in their showroom they compete directly with each other.
You must remember that people and businesses buy an Opel Combo because it's a German car with German engineering and workmanship.
Combining them in one showroom would be the fastest way to lose a great deal of their current marketshare.
For the premium brands you are talking right now about 7 nameplates in total (4 DS, 2 Alfa, 1 Lancia). If all goes well this number will max out in 8 years in about 16 nameplates. The number of showrooms will be relatively limited and i think they will be able to give each of the 3 brands sufficient room to grow together keeping their own identity.

Having all the European Mass mainstream brands to share showroom with Jeep is what the Stellantis dealer base in Europe expects(from all reports) as well as behaving as a Agent.