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Alfa Romeo Giulietta and EMP-2 platform.

Bili

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Me too. :D

P.S.
Pomigliano may have 3 separate production lines. I don't know maximum capacity for 5 days working week. It's usually in the region of 150k units per year.
 

Appassito

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How Peugeot boss Jean-Philippe Imparato wants to straighten out Alfa Romeo

Mais qu’est-ce qui peut motiver un directeur de la marque Peugeot (1,12 million de véhicules l’an passé) à abandonner son poste pour prendre la tête d’un label en déshérence absolue, qui a vendu moins de 60.000 voitures l’an dernier (dont 36.500 seulement en Europe, 18.500 aux Etats-Unis) ?
But what can motivate a director of the Peugeot brand (1.12 million vehicles last year) to give up his post to take the head of a label in absolute escheat, which has sold less than 60,000 cars?

"La passion", insiste Jean-Philippe Imparato.
"Passion", insists Jean-Philippe Imparato.

Mon père a roulé en Alfa Giulietta, et, quand je suis né, en Giulia, puis en Alfetta, en coupé GTV V6.
"My father drove an Alfa Giulietta, and, when I was born, a Giulia, then an Alfetta, a GTV V6 coupe.

Et la première voiture de ma femme était une Alfasud rouge", explique à Challenges ce méridional de 54 ans, qui a passé trente ans chez PSA.
And the first car in my wife was a red Alfasud ", explains to Challenges this southern 54-year-old, who spent thirty years at PSA.

"Je ne poursuis pas une carrière.
"I am not looking for a career.

Sinon, il faudrait faire autre chose", concède-t-il avec humour et sans dissimuler la difficulté de son pari.
Otherwise, I would have to do something else," he concedes with humor and without hiding the difficulty of his bet.

Mais "c’est un défi personnel de relancer une telle marque".
But "it's a personal challenge to relaunch such a brand."

 

Deckard Cain

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Just back in October 2020 Audi has started selling the latest version of their RS Q3. I'm talking about 2.5 liter Inline 5 capable of 400 HP which has AWD and not eAWD.

They are working on the new RS3. Back in September sales for S3 with 2.0 Inline 4 310 HP AWD has started.

Do you want more?

At this time for European brands and especially Alfa Romeo equals handling with elevated power. Thus PHEV which brings a lot of (undesirable) weight is a big no.

PHEV could be used for middle ground for those people who are green addicts. It's a win-win situation. Such customers would lower overall CO2 numbers while they would also make ICE only and MHEV performance versions plausible.
@KrisW explained this very well on GME T6 and Hemi example.
I think it's interesting that you are creating such high standards for a potential Stellatins Giulietta. The previous Giulietta never had anything that came even close to the BMW M1, Mercedes A 45 AMG or Audi RS3. So you ARE moving goal posts. That wasn't an issue for not having a Giulietta previously and it should not be an issue now.
And for me PHEV is a perfect compromise for that solution because, while it might make a vehicle heavier, it's also a way of having better weight distribution and a lower center of gravity. Will it compete with the best? No. Will it be enough in a first generation Stellatins Giulietta? Yes.

To me, I prefer a billion times a nicely styled Giulietta in a "compromised" platform than an absence of the C-segment hatch segment in Europe.
Hell, that's all Fiat did with Alfa since they acquired them anyway, so don't preach me with purisms nowadays. Tell me about the super-sporty 147 version that left the germans in the dust. Tell me about the Alfa 159 that wasn't an overweight FWD pig with lipstick that was dynamically superior to the germans. Tell me about the 156 that was competitive with the mythical E46 M3. Tell me about the Alfa GT, which topped out at a 240hp V6 and had the same interior as the 147 (big LOL).

So don't come and preach me about purity, and that an Alfa Giulietta has to have as good technical solutions as the german competitors. It. Does. Not.
They haven't done that for decades. They will take a lot longer to be able to do that in all segments. And to do that they need to have comercially competitive options that will then show the bean counters that a sporty version might make sense. They shouldn't stop competing in volume segments just because they cannot offer niche halo versions in those segments. That's just dumb strategically.
 

pumadog

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Very true. And nowadays it's much more important for sales to have electrified versions and super infotainment than superb power or handling. As Giulia and Stelvio sadly show.

I'm a bit worried for Tonale that it might get stranded as the last product on an abandoned platform. With unprofitable production all on its own. Lacking further updates in the future. No infos yet for new Renegade/500X generations, right? Apart from the 500X/L merge.
 
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TripleT

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Wait y'all do understand that you can't measure the success of the 2 Alfa based on Volume????

It is a severely capacity limited... it is almost semi-exotic in it implementations. This something I spent a good time trying to explain to another site. Tonale is another example of this. People falsely assume every implementation is the same cost this far from the truth. There is escalating cost to capacity. Alfa implementations were NEVER intended for high volume, using that as a measuring stick is false. Turning it into a appliance brand to compete with Toyota is a recipe for disaster. The entire C segment in Europe is the new D segment in the USA. Frankly spending any money on it is like flushing it down the toilet, so diminishing the brand over it is rubbing salt in the wounds. 5 years ago I explained all this somewhere else and it was disregarded. When I explain the capacity realities and C segment sedan market being spinning drain. Listen.
 

pumadog

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You don't wanna tell us that the Alfa Cassino output was intended to go under 60k yearly? The sales goals for Giulia and Stelvio were higher, and so were the initial sales. Of course Alfa Romeo is no mass-market brand like Toyota, but it's not the next Bugatti either. Alfa needs a bit higher sales to stay visible and deliver enough traffic to keep dealers/garages going. European Giulia sales per year went from 24,500 to 7,500, Stelvio from 30,000 to 17,500 …
 

pumadog

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About the C segment (without CUV) in Europe going down the toilet … What is that based on?

20122.064.195
20132.068.504
20142.217.006
20152.317.728
20162.380.153
20172.335.894
20182.780.019
20192.652.504

Numbers from carsalesbase.com
 

Deckard Cain

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You don't wanna tell us that the Alfa Cassino output was intended to go under 60k yearly? The sales goals for Giulia and Stelvio were higher, and so were the initial sales. Of course Alfa Romeo is no mass-market brand like Toyota, but it's not the next Bugatti either. Alfa needs a bit higher sales to stay visible and deliver enough traffic to keep dealers/garages going. European Giulia sales per year went from 24,500 to 7,500, Stelvio from 30,000 to 17,500 …
Exactly. Those are the halo models. A C-segment benefits from those and builds up volume.
 

TripleT

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About the C segment (without CUV) in Europe going down the toilet … What is that based on?

20122.064.195
20132.068.504
20142.217.006
20152.317.728
20162.380.153
20172.335.894
20182.780.019
20192.652.504

Numbers from carsalesbase.com
Ha Ha this is the same argument made to approve the 200 for D segment in the USA.... Volume is not the issue with C segment in Europe. in fact volume goes up as a segment collapses when it over capacity in a effort wring profit from it. I not doing the same thing I had to do at other site. Regard what I am telling you or do not. The segment is collapsing.

Does shutting down a country for several months effect its capacity ...... asking for a friend.
 

pumadog

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Please back that up with data. From what I can see, the premium share of the segment went up in the last decade.
 

TripleT

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Regard me or not.... my sources vision is 5 years out. I am not hiding my name is Todd Turner... there is a reason I know these things.
 
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Bili

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I think it's interesting that you are creating such high standards for a potential Stellatins Giulietta. The previous Giulietta never had anything that came even close to the BMW M1, Mercedes A 45 AMG or Audi RS3. So you ARE moving goal posts. That wasn't an issue for not having a Giulietta previously and it should not be an issue now.
And for me PHEV is a perfect compromise for that solution because, while it might make a vehicle heavier, it's also a way of having better weight distribution and a lower center of gravity. Will it compete with the best? No. Will it be enough in a first generation Stellatins Giulietta? Yes.

To me, I prefer a billion times a nicely styled Giulietta in a "compromised" platform than an absence of the C-segment hatch segment in Europe.
Hell, that's all Fiat did with Alfa since they acquired them anyway, so don't preach me with purisms nowadays. Tell me about the super-sporty 147 version that left the germans in the dust. Tell me about the Alfa 159 that wasn't an overweight FWD pig with lipstick that was dynamically superior to the germans. Tell me about the 156 that was competitive with the mythical E46 M3. Tell me about the Alfa GT, which topped out at a 240hp V6 and had the same interior as the 147 (big LOL).

So don't come and preach me about purity, and that an Alfa Giulietta has to have as good technical solutions as the german competitors. It. Does. Not.
They haven't done that for decades. They will take a lot longer to be able to do that in all segments. And to do that they need to have comercially competitive options that will then show the bean counters that a sporty version might make sense. They shouldn't stop competing in volume segments just because they cannot offer niche halo versions in those segments. That's just dumb strategically.
Let's start this with one video:

So they have 2.0 330 HP. They just need to fit it into a platform which has transversely oriented engine. Suitable transmission would be harder to find. But Stellantis is now a quite big company. They should come out with something.

And the engine I've mentioned is not a performance version so they can puh it a little bit of they want.

As I said Alfa doesn't need to have the most powerful engine in the class. It should be reasonably powerful but handling and drive feeling should be top notch. That's something which was spot on for 156 and 147 generation.
PHEV would not give nimble handling or good felling. There are other PSA brands which could and should utilize PHEV tech for performance versions.

Giulietta? At the time it was benchmarked against Golf Mk VI. Golf GTI to be precise. That't a Golf version which is oriented for handling. R is not handling oriented, not as GTI.

156 against E46? 156 beat it at ETCC. Production based racing. 156 had excellent bones for FWD based car. No doubt about it.

Alfa is and must be about handling, about driving experience, about driver at the center.

Very true. And nowadays it's much more important for sales to have electrified versions and super infotainment than superb power or handling. As Giulia and Stelvio sadly show.

I'm a bit worried for Tonale that it might get stranded as the last product on an abandoned platform. With unprofitable production all on its own. Lacking further updates in the future. No infos yet for new Renegade/500X generations, right? Apart from the 500X/L merge.
Giulia and Stelvio sales? It's at this level due to various reasons. A lot is related to sales network. More than some may imagine.

500X and 500L merge? Not true. Not even close. I can say as much. A lot is under development, a lot is green lit. I'm talking about FCA in general.

You don't wanna tell us that the Alfa Cassino output was intended to go under 60k yearly? The sales goals for Giulia and Stelvio were higher, and so were the initial sales. Of course Alfa Romeo is no mass-market brand like Toyota, but it's not the next Bugatti either. Alfa needs a bit higher sales to stay visible and deliver enough traffic to keep dealers/garages going. European Giulia sales per year went from 24,500 to 7,500, Stelvio from 30,000 to 17,500 …
Combined output for Giulia and Stelvio was around 135k for 5 days working week.

Exactly. Those are the halo models. A C-segment benefits from those and builds up volume.
Giulia and Stelvio as halo models? :oops:

Please back that up with data. From what I can see, the premium share of the segment went up in the last decade.
Premium C-segment?

As I've said sales are much more complicated. Retail vs fleet. Home market, how big it is, do they buy domestic or foreign cars. To be sincere I must say that a lot of this is playing against Alfa Romeo. Their goal from the start were retail sales. Now they've got new CEO who was the main responsible for PSA retail sales. The guy who had brought PSA to the record breaking EBIT margins because of his retail sales success. FYI, PSA has lower margin for fleet sales than FCA. At least it was like that in 2018 or first half od 2019. Manley once mentioned it.
 

Deckard Cain

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All I know is that DS has so much more products than Alfa and it sells more. Look at that new launch. Make a Giulietta based on the EMP2 for the first generation. Alfa needs this AND the Tonale.
 

Bili

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Yes, Alfa needs a CUV which will outperform their hatch. So... I don't know how to describe it.
 

TripleT

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There are plenty of appliance brands Citroen, Opel, Fiat, and sadly Chrysler.

They don't need to do that to Alfa and Jeep. Margin on appliances is low and demand volume.
 

Deckard Cain

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Yes, Alfa needs a CUV which will outperform their hatch. So... I don't know how to describe it.
Don't see a problem with that considering that consumers are flocking to SUVs. But if you don't want an EMP2 based Giulietta I would totally prefer a Small-Wide one sharing as much as possible with the Tonale. I just don't think Stellantis will do that.
 

Bili

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I didn't say that I don't want EMP2 based Giulietta. I said that EMP2 should need some tweaks for Alfa Romeo. It's not suitable in this form.
 

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Because of the pandemic we have a lot of fleet special Jeep Cherokees. They are Disney World specials with Florida plates that are driven up here to the snow belt as one-way rentals. Meanwhile all our AWD Lx cars have disappeared on one-ways to Nowhereville. There are a lot of Jeep Cherokees whose chief mission in life is to bake in the sun while parked at tourist destinations. They are front drive decontented models bought by the rental fleets in big numbers. Power for this model is the Multi-air 2.4 and 9-speed transmission combo which isn't a stellar (no pun intended) power team.

I would hate for this to happen to Alfa-Romeo. Mexico gets the full Alfa line, but the US doesn't. BMW also offers fleet specials to the rental fleets in the US, now that Cadillac has dropped a lot of its sedans. Do BMW and Mercedes still market taxi cabs overseas? That would explain a lot of things.
 

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