Why Can't Stellantis Build A Next-Gen HEMI® Engine?

In the rapidly evolving landscape of automotive technology, the debate over the future of internal combustion engines rages on. While many automakers are pivoting towards electric vehicles (EVs), stalwarts like General Motors (GM) and Ford are reaffirming their commitment to the classic V8 engine. This raises an intriguing question: why isn’t Stellantis, the parent company … (read full article...)

 

[patfromigh]

Our rental fleet received a couple of Wrangler 4Xe models over the summer, so they would be available for the big golf tournament here in town. I have been keeping an eye out for them to make sure they are plugged in before being turned over for rental. A lot of our plugin hybrids are left with empty batteries, which leads to some serious problems unless recharged. The 4Xe system in the Jeeps can run as a regular hybrid which keeps up a level of charge from the ICE motor, but when the batteries are really low, it should be plugged in.

The BMW hybrids are less than ideal. The the SUV models take forever to charge for a lackluster battery only range. The sedan models reach the full charge sooner but have a very paltry range of around 20 miles. They use the same ZF transmission that Jeep uses, but somehow Jeep makes it work much better. The BMW plugin sedans are new and have been properly charged, so seeing only 20 miles of battery range is pathetic. We have a Ford Escape PHEV model which had never been properly charged and constantly ran on empty batteries. That too only had a 20 mile range, but that's not what it started out with. A Wrangler Rubicon 4Xe doesn't have much of a longer battery range than the BMW sedans, but the Rubicon has no aero or rolling resistance enhancements. That said, the Jeeps charge in a fraction of the time. A Nissan Leaf full EV charges faster than the plugin BMW SUVs and has a 250 mile range. These are on all the same Level 2 charging stations we have at work.

Why am I bringing this up here on a Hemi thread? We have some of the new Prius models in our fleet. Those are just regular hybrids, not the plugin models. The reality is, the newer hybrids run much better than their conventional ICE powered contemporaries. The new Prius is much livelier than the 2024 Mustangs we just got in. The Mustangs are all four cylinder Ecoboost powered. The front looks like it was cropped off the latest Honda HRV, the dash could have come off Honda as well. When I say the new Prius is livelier, I am talking about stop and go drivability. The Mustang is probably faster, once it gets going. There is a lot of herky-jerky with that Ecoboost four.

The Prius Prime and Wrangler 4Xe both posted 97mph trap speeds in recent test reviews. These were production vehicles, not preproduction units. Both vehicles though significantly different, are plugin hybrids with four cylinder motors. For what they are, they are quick. Would a next generation Hemi survive with the current Hemi’s drivability? The hybrids under the CDJR brands were in development before the Stellantis creation, so I will use FCA as the genesis. FCA started out with a decimated engineering staff, but has recovered. A lot of effort went into electrification and it shows with mundane aspects of hybrid use such as battery range and time to fully charged. The original Fiat 500e was the best of the compliance cars, and lessons learned with it contributed greatly to the present generation 500e.

A decision was made not to continue with the Hemi hybrid pickups. The GM supplied transmission was way too expensive and the later mild hybrid system was better in both performance and economy. I will end my post with this. Things I don’t know are, how much of a generational leap is the new mild hybrid system and what the range extender is going to be in the EV Ram pickup.

 

[TripleT]

Our rental fleet received a couple of Wrangler 4Xe models over the summer, so they would be available for the big golf tournament here in town. I have been keeping an eye out for them to make sure they are plugged in before being turned over for rental. A lot of our plugin hybrids are left with empty batteries, which leads to some serious problems unless recharged. The 4Xe system in the Jeeps can run as a regular hybrid which keeps up a level of charge from the ICE motor, but when the batteries are really low, it should be plugged in.

The screen on the Jeep is a liar.

1st the mileage calculator uses 54mpg as the EV default trying to account for cost of electricity which is not only variable per region, local, supplier, but hour to hour. They undersell the Jeep compared to competition and miles divided by gallon. Example last tank we went 1200 miles on 16 gallons of gas the screen showed 41 mpg.

2nd the battery level indicator shows EV mode Electricity. Roughly 15% of the battery is required for operation of the motors that replaced the torque converter is hidden from the operator only show as less than 1%. So the screen really only shows 15% to 100% but the scale 0 to 99. I get that if 15% was always shown people would complain it doesn't use all it battery but there has to be better way to represent that.

I have heard of issue with long storage .... but mostly with 12volt battery that still operates a lot of systems with ICE. And a batch of bad 12Vs.

 

[Steelborn]

What should have happened was a massive lawsuit against the EPA for overreach! All 3 US companies should have been involved in it too! The government needs a big smack down and needs to be driven back out of our daily lives. The emissions are all BS. The Federal government should have sued Cali and gotten rid of the stupid Carb crap long ago. Unfortunately, the government doesn’t care about what the people want anymore.

As far as the hurricane, good luck! Duty cycle is a real problem. A smaller boosted engine CANNOT last as long as a NA large displacement engine doing the same work. Cylinder pressure wears rings and bores and even more so when temps rise such as in a boosted application. That’s why Ecoboost engines die all the time. Stellantis needs to go to war with the EPA and build a new gen 7.0l NA Hemi. 700hp should be the target as 100hp/liter is not unreasonable. They won’t though. The Europeans are weak.

 

[TripleT]

What should have happened was a massive lawsuit against the EPA for overreach! All 3 US companies should have been involved in it too! The government needs a big smack down and needs to be driven back out of our daily lives. The emissions are all BS. The Federal government should have sued Cali and gotten rid of the stupid Carb crap long ago. Unfortunately, the government doesn’t care about what the people want anymore.

As far as the hurricane, good luck! Duty cycle is a real problem. A smaller boosted engine CANNOT last as long as a NA large displacement engine doing the same work. Cylinder pressure wears rings and bores and even more so when temps rise such as in a boosted application. That’s why Ecoboost engines die all the time. Stellantis needs to go to war with the EPA and build a new gen 7.0l NA Hemi. 700hp should be the target as 100hp/liter is not unreasonable. They won’t though. The Europeans are weak.

Coming out flaming in the first post.

Already happened and the lost at the Supreme Court with both the EPA and CARB states. 7.0 couldn't pass compliance so would not be certified for sale. The only recourse is democratic.

CANNOT is BS Fords high displacement engine fail also 5.4 is historically bad what next want to talk about Cadillac? It not like the Hemi are problem free. Plasma Coated cylinders have changed the game and yes you can keep a head bolted down better than a V8 with a straight six. That is why all the famously durable engines are that configuration.

Quit dogging the new just because you like the old, it two separate arguments.

 

[ScramFan]

Coming out flaming in the first post.

Already happened and the lost at the Supreme Court with both the EPA and CARB states. 7.0 couldn't pass compliance so would not be certified for sale. The only recourse is democratic.

CANNOT is BS Fords high displacement engine fail also 5.4 is historically bad what next want to talk about Cadillac? It not like the Hemi are problem free. Plasma Coated cylinders have changed the game and yes you can keep a head bolted down better than a V8 with a straight six. That is why all the famously durable engines are that configuration.

Quit dogging the new just because you like the old, it two separate arguments.

I pretty much agree with you on everything, but I still find it hard to believe that Ram isn't secretly working on a large displacement, naturally aspirated, cast iron block (or CGI) pushrod V8 engine for their HD pickup line.

I obviously have no knowledge, but I think it would be very risky for them to not be working on something for that market. I'm specially talking about the HD pickups used in vocational applications.

Unless maybe they would offer the new Cummins I6 gas engine? But that thing seems like it would still be very expensive. Who knows.

 

[TripleT]

I pretty much agree with you on everything, but I still find it hard to believe that Ram isn't secretly working on a large displacement, naturally aspirated, cast iron block (or CGI) pushrod V8 engine for their HD pickup line.

I obviously have no knowledge, but I think it would be very risky for them to not be working on something for that market. I'm specially talking about the HD pickups used in vocational applications.

Unless maybe they would offer the new Cummins I6 gas engine? But that thing seems like it would still be very expensive. Who knows.

It really depends on what the EPA does. You just go with what you got but the engine underperforms versus the new powerplant.

 

[patfromigh]

I pretty much agree with you on everything, but I still find it hard to believe that Ram isn't secretly working on a large displacement, naturally aspirated, cast iron block (or CGI) pushrod V8 engine for their HD pickup line.

I obviously have no knowledge, but I think it would be very risky for them to not be working on something for that market. I'm specially talking about the HD pickups used in vocational applications.

Unless maybe they would offer the new Cummins I6 gas engine? But that thing seems like it would still be very expensive. Who knows.

Unelected bureaucrats are beholden to a one size fits all idea of battery electric power trains for all vehicles. There are draconian rules for trucks in the higher GVW ranges coming down the pike. Diesel fuel has hovered around 4 Dollars a gallon or more for too long and now fleets want practical alternatives. An annual event called the Work Truck Show is where much of the latest alternative fuel and electric power trains are introduced, and commercial buyers are paying close attention.

The sales volumes for the HD Ram commercial vehicles are not great enough to justify development of a new gas engine with the present regulatory onslaught. I suspect once the new ZF Powerline transmission is in US production, it will be used in the higher GVW Rams. The gas engine currently in use for these trucks might be tweaked for the new Powerline 8-speed, but not much else. Cummins is cooking up a lot of new stuff in their kitchen. One of their new recipes is fuel agnostic engines, meaning the basic engine can be adapted to burn a variety of fuels, such as gas, diesel, natural gas, propane, or even hydrogen. I expect the B-series Cummins to be updated with this.

The Ram Promaster EV already has a backlog of orders. Delivery trucks are one of the types of vehicles where battery electric power is a good fit. There are a number of vendors with off the rack components which would love to provide Ram Trucks with parts for battery electric power for their commercial vehicles. I'm guessing the next new internal combustion engine for the Ram HD lineup will be a range extender.

 

[TripleT]

Unelected bureaucrats are beholden to a one size fits all idea of battery electric power trains for all vehicles. There are draconian rules for trucks in the higher GVW ranges coming down the pike. Diesel fuel has hovered around 4 Dollars a gallon or more for too long and now fleets want practical alternatives. An annual event called the Work Truck Show is where much of the latest alternative fuel and electric power trains are introduced, and commercial buyers are paying close attention.

The sales volumes for the HD Ram commercial vehicles are not great enough to justify development of a new gas engine with the present regulatory onslaught. I suspect once the new ZF Powerline transmission is in US production, it will be used in the higher GVW Rams. The gas engine currently in use for these trucks might be tweaked for the new Powerline 8-speed, but not much else. Cummins is cooking up a lot of new stuff in their kitchen. One of their new recipes is fuel agnostic engines, meaning the basic engine can be adapted to burn a variety of fuels, such as gas, diesel, natural gas, propane, or even hydrogen. I expect the B-series Cummins to be updated with this.

The Ram Promaster EV already has a backlog of orders. Delivery trucks are one of the types of vehicles where battery electric power is a good fit. There are a number of vendors with off the rack components which would love to provide Ram Trucks with parts for battery electric power for their commercial vehicles. I'm guessing the next new internal combustion engine for the Ram HD lineup will be a range extender.

Short loop deliveries it is likely the best solution.... IF they will let them have the Supply.

 

[nightmarehemi23]

I think that they have most definitely jumped the gun here. The hemi engine is a good engine it needs more refinement to keep up with emissions and industry standards. The whole EV thing is great and all but i do not think it is worthy of replacing a combustion engine just yet. I personally think that they are going out on a limb and praying they can sell a dodge Challenger or charger with a electric motor, but I think sales will be way down. The ones that are sticking to refinement like ford and Chevy will do well with their v8 combustion engines . I only can sit back and watch and see what happens next. I can say I own a 23 challenger hemi rt last call and I could not imagine it being electric, I do not believe I would have even considered it.

 

[TripleT]

EV mandate is the CARB states 18 of them over half the population.

LB29 and LB49 are intended to be offers with the Hurricane which outperforms the Eagle and Apache while rumored versions exceed the Hellcat.

 

[generaljim1990]

If they don't build a new one then they won't come. Ditching the hemi means they are ditching their customers.

 

[TripleT]

You lost me at cylinder liners….get back to us when you understand your error

 

[AlexB]

You aren’t really correct or looking at this through the lense of factual data. V-8 does not equal old fashioned. Fords 5.0 Ti-VCT V8 makes less carbon emissions and Nox fumes than the new 3.0 Hurricane I-6. Look at the window sticker on an F-150 V8 vs a Wagoneer. The 5.0 Ti-VCT V8 is also more advanced at its core than the 3.0 Hurricane as it uses PFDI dual fueling and high 12:1 compression with its twin independent cam timing. Stellantis is also paying Ford to use the 5.0’s plasma cylinder liners under license in this 3.0 too. Couple this with easier electrification for a V-8 with shorter packaging…..the hurricane is nothing special, and its fueling and cylinder heads are still an entire generation of technology behind Fords DOHC V-8 program. Turbochargers =/= advanced, it’s 75 year old technology. No more advanced than naturally aspirated application.

Ford copes about profitability every 3 months.
Your turbo charger ramblings are complete nonsense.

 

[TripleT]

Good to see someone googled their error and fixed it, claiming metalogical process as a engine design feature is about as erroneous as one could make.

if your claim as nothing special or new I'll take you back to some early Marlin engines that as similar to todays technology, it really about refinement, durability, and cost.

There are inherent advantages of a Turbo 6 over a V8, I am pretty sure you understand them, but it wouldn't bolter your argument for some sort of magical status of the Coyote and fighting cat exhaust note.

Fun to go throwing around flames and strutting like a Peacock... but the participants here tend to be beyond that..

 

[TripleT]

If they don't build a new one then they won't come. Ditching the hemi means they are ditching their customers.

Another new member throwing flames. To catch up.

There is no Hemi, it is a marketing campaign good one worked on you, the current design is out of room for improvement any in the V8 configuration would be grounds up.

They made the LX forever and the engine forever, there are plenty of them still sitting on the lot, and if you're not into salvaging DC will likely have them beyond your lifetime.

There is no engineering or marketing solution that gets around the EPA and CARB fines for the engines. There is simply no way around the $3500 and escalating per car fine that doesn't involve castrating the powerplant.

Since most people don't even pull the plastic cover, if you're right the best thing they should do it name the new powerplant Hemi and put it on the cover.

 

[Mopar392]

Another new member throwing flames. To catch up.

There is no Hemi, it is a marketing campaign good one worked on you, the current design is out of room for improvement any in the V8 configuration would be grounds up.

They made the LX forever and the engine forever, there are plenty of them still sitting on the lot, and if you're not into salvaging DC will likely have them beyond your lifetime.

There is no engineering or marketing solution that gets around the EPA and CARB fines for the engines. There is simply no way around the $3500 and escalating per car fine that doesn't involve castrating the powerplant.

Since most people don't even pull the plastic cover, if you're right the best thing they should do it name the new powerplant Hemi and put it on the cover.

Why don’t make the potential buyer pays for $3500-4000 if he really wants the V8 HEMI engine?

 

[TripleT]

Why don’t make the potential buyer pays for $3500-4000 if he really wants the V8 HEMI engine?

Because despite the very small sample here, the number of people willing pay to have a worst car in every way… slower, heavier, thirstier, poorer handling, worse braking and more expensive is small, And it not just the fines it the design and certification costs. So i do think you could do a “Hemi” the ROI is almost completely marketing.

 

[Mopar392]

Let’s hope that one day Stellantis would be selling enough BEV and PHEV to be able to offer a V8 again similar to Ford.

 

[TripleT]

And I6s but that is the key…. Still an issue of how to make it a better performer than this very potent new powerplant. Other vehicle changes would be needed, aero and weight, driving the cost even more.

 

[Mopar392]

I’ll take a HEMI V8 4.0 Twin Turbo, if it ever comes, over an I6 Twin Turbo.
Even if it offers the same horsepower. Heavy or not. Because, the torque and the area under the graph would be better.