The Great Stellantis Flop at CES

[ChargerFan1]

Granted they are calling the Charger Daytona a concept, but they are getting into trim details now - that's pretty specific to not bring to market, no?

There is video of Ralph Gilles with that car saying its being built and that Tim told them to make the production version look exactly like the concept (except it'll have a normal rear seat etc). He was also asked about 2 door versus 4 door and said they made it a 2 door because they were sick about people crying about the charger being a 4 door for 15+ years.

How that fits in with the current challenger and charger I have no idea but he was asked if its going to replace challenger and he said nothing can replace challenger

 

[AlexB]

Hahaha, I will never buy an EV - thanks for playing.

Put your money where your mouth is - how much profit will US operations have produced in 2022 and how much profit will Europe have produced in 2022 when earnings are announced?

Europe (the main reason for the PSA merger) will do low-mid $9 billion.
That will rival GLOBAL Hyundai & Kia profit.
That’s before North America.

 

[Deckard Cain]

Hahaha, I will never buy an EV - thanks for playing.

Put your money where your mouth is - how much profit will US operations have produced in 2022 and how much profit will Europe have produced in 2022 when earnings are announced?

You're in your right to do that. I don't wish to antagonize no one.
In the end, these are just cars even if different from ICE vehicles. I like cars, so if possible I test everything I can.
Even if you don't buy one I would recommend you to try out a couple of EVs if you have the chance for fun.
The acceleration of an EV is something else. One pedal driving is very engaging and more confortable than typical driving. And since I tried an EV before an auto transmission ICE, that biased me. Auto transmission cars feel inferior to EVs. A good manual ICE vehicle is more engaging and fun than both an EV and auto trans vehicle but if you daily drive a lot the BEV is the superior choice because of decreased cabin noise and less things to do when driving.

And I've put my money where my mouth is: I'm driving an EV, and I use for 110km of daily driving.

For pick-ups lets see where things are with the second generation of vehicles. I am optimistic that RAM will be able to tackle the issues that reviewers found with the F-150. I really do believe that is possible because a couple of years in BEV development will make a lot of difference.

As for the profits, you can check Q3 numbers by yourself. Europe generated $13.5 billion in profit, while the US generated $21.5 billion. Explain to me please how 13.5 billion is terrible and makes the european side of the business unsustainable.
I don't understand the sense of pride and accomplishment of being price gouged by a corporation in the US compared to what people in Europe are. That's a weird flex.
Maybe you should wonder is why they're able to have so big margins in the US. Maybe not launching more accessible sedans and smaller pick-ups with smaller margins in the US as something to do with it.

In Europe, Stellantis actually plays to be one of the biggest manufacturers with nearly 20% of the market, and that share will only increase when they finally launch sub-compact and compact Fiats.
In the US it only owns 10% of the market.

 

[AlexB]

You're in your right to do that. I don't wish to antagonize no one.
In the end, these are just cars even if different from ICE vehicles. I like cars, so if possible I test everything I can.
Even if you don't buy one I would recommend you to try out a couple of EVs if you have the chance for fun.
The acceleration of an EV is something else. One pedal driving is very engaging and more confortable than typical driving. And since I tried an EV before an auto transmission ICE, that biased me. Auto transmission cars feel inferior to EVs. A good manual ICE vehicle is more engaging and fun than both an EV and auto trans vehicle but if you daily drive a lot the BEV is the superior choice because of decreased cabin noise and less things to do when driving.

And I've put my money where my mouth is: I'm driving an EV, and I use for 110km of daily driving.

For pick-ups lets see where things are with the second generation of vehicles. I am optimistic that RAM will be able to tackle the issues that reviewers found with the F-150. I really do believe that is possible because a couple of years in BEV development will make a lot of difference.

As for the profits, you can check Q3 numbers by yourself. Europe generated $13.5 billion in profit, while the US generated $21.5 billion. Explain to me please how 13.5 billion is terrible and makes the european side of the business unsustainable.
I don't understand the sense of pride and accomplishment of being price gouged by a corporation in the US compared to what people in Europe are. That's a weird flex.
Maybe you should wonder is why they're able to have so big margins in the US. Maybe not launching more accessible sedans and smaller pick-ups with smaller margins in the US as something to do with it.

In Europe, Stellantis actually plays to be one of the biggest manufacturers with nearly 20% of the market, and that share will only increase when they finally launch sub-compact and compact Fiats.
In the US it only owns 10% of the market.

Agree.
Just a tiny correction: $13.5 billion of Q3 Revenue (not profit).

 

[Deckard Cain]

They mention net revenues, which is revenue after you discount expenses. Meaning it's a synonym for profits. However, I also think the values are too high to refer to profits.

 

[patfromigh]

In our fleet we have Nissan Leaf and the Kia EV equivalent (whatever it's called). We also have Polestar as a higher end EV offering. We do not have any of the GM offerings for some unknown reason, and Hertz seems to have an exclusive contract with Tesla. My wheel time in these battery electric vehicles has been very brief, so I can't say it has been rewarding beyond contributing to my paycheck.

I don't like the styling and gimmickry of the Ram EV shown at the CES, but that is a matter of my personal tastes. I do like the STLA frame features and hope to see more of it when other vehicles built on that platform are introduced. As far as a Chrysler branded battery electric, such a product first must have a Chrysler persona before it is a Chrysler EV. Those crazy 1980s K-car based models abandoned the old 3 trim tiers lineup which had defined the Chrysler brand, Newport (base) 300 (sporty medium), and New Yorker (near prestige luxury).

A huge red flag I see for Ram trucks is there doesn't seem to be a replacement on the horizon for the Ram ProMaster City light commercial vehicle. The Ram PMC is based on the TOFAS built Fiat Doblo and is starting to get long in the tooth. The new badge engineered Fiat Doblo is too small to replace the PMC in North America. Fiat's new Scudo would be a much better replacement since it has an EV option. Light commercial vehicle buyers want electrification. I would build it here in the US to avoid tariffs and see if Toyota would want to go in on it like they do in Europe. There would only be two power train options in North America, pure battery electric and plugin hybrid.

 

[cygnus]

The key figures are -

EBIT total for North America
EBIT total Europe

EBIT % for North America
EBIT % for Europe

If the company was run correctly, the EBIT % for North America and Europe should be equal. They are not. North America EBIT % eclipses Europe EBIT, and always will. They will never instill true cost discipline in Europe because Europe is given deference in the organization. The only thing that saves Europe EBIT % is Maeserati.

Ideally the EBIT %'s in North America would be 12% and Europe would be 8%. Those are the values for a company that doesn't gouge their customers. I am not bragging about North America EBIT % - it is way too high right now, because they can, for now, charge obscene prices but this will not be the case in 2023

EBIT totals are what they are - that's on the product portfolio for each region.

Do you want to know what happens when the consumer finds out they bought an overpriced product that has been discounted extensively less than 60 days after they purchased it? Look no further than Tesla, whose insuranced registrations in China the first week have utterly collapsed in January because they abused the Chinese consumer - Tesla owners in China protest against surprise price cuts they missed

I'm sure I will be told that they will cut shifts before they cut prices - sure, ok. But you've now created an artificial price floor that will REALLY limit your pool of buyers. The only scenario then that restores volume/shifts at the plants is the economy reflating. Meanwhile, they're burning the cash they have on foolish EV products that no one will buy in a contracting macro-economic environment. So that's where we're at now.

 

[redriderbob]

Considering the current Ram came out in CY 2018, this one is very likely just the next generation truck. Could very well just be gas, hybrid and full EV.

Not quite, I will be posting more answers this afternoon

 

[AlexB]

The key figures are -

EBIT total for North America
EBIT total Europe

EBIT % for North America
EBIT % for Europe

If the company was run correctly, the EBIT % for North America and Europe should be equal. They are not. North America EBIT % eclipses Europe EBIT, and always will. They will never instill true cost discipline in Europe because Europe is given deference in the organization. The only thing that saves Europe EBIT % is Maeserati.

Ideally the EBIT %'s in North America would be 12% and Europe would be 8%. Those are the values for a company that doesn't gouge their customers. I am not bragging about North America EBIT % - it is way too high right now, because they can, for now, charge obscene prices but this will not be the case in 2023

EBIT totals are what they are - that's on the product portfolio for each region.

Do you want to know what happens when the consumer finds out they bought an overpriced product that has been discounted extensively less than 60 days after they purchased it? Look no further than Tesla, whose insuranced registrations in China the first week have utterly collapsed in January because they abused the Chinese consumer - Tesla owners in China protest against surprise price cuts they missed

I'm sure I will be told that they will cut shifts before they cut prices - sure, ok. But you've now created an artificial price floor that will REALLY limit your pool of buyers. The only scenario then that restores volume/shifts at the plants is the economy reflating. Meanwhile, they're burning the cash they have on foolish EV products that no one will buy in a contracting macro-economic environment. So that's where we're at now.

Actual that’s bull.
Almost all of it… too much Bull & Nonsense (let alone crying about EV’s) unpack.

Maserati is Its own business unit separate from everything else.
North America and Europe (especially Legacy PSA Business) don’t even earn revenue the Same way let alone a very different mix. Different playbook for different customers of the region.

“Too high” is simply the matter of the beholder. Plenty America’s feel like buying the loaded up models from Jeep/Dodge/RAM.
First half 2022

https://www.stellantis.com/content/dam/stellantis-corporate/investors/events-and-presentations/presentations/Stellantis_H1_22_Results_Presentation.pdf

(Maserati own segment it ALWAYS HAS).

 

[cygnus]

That presentation sucks and is purposely obtuse to obscure just how bad the Europe EBIT is.

The only thing informative about that presentation is 2022H1 revenue

North America Net Revenue - 42 Billion
'Enlarged' Europe (lol) - 31 Billion

Where is the breakdown of EBIT between North America and Europe? Don't give me this fudged "Adjusted Operational Income".

Again, there are only four numbers that matter -

EBIT total for North America (Profitability in Billions)
EBIT total Europe (Profitability in Billions)

EBIT % for North America (% profit margin)
EBIT % for Europe (% profit margin, and go ahead and throw Maserati in there)

They know exactly what those numbers are but they wouldn't dare publish them.

 

[Deckard Cain]

The key figures are -

EBIT total for North America
EBIT total Europe

EBIT % for North America
EBIT % for Europe

If the company was run correctly, the EBIT % for North America and Europe should be equal. They are not. North America EBIT % eclipses Europe EBIT, and always will. They will never instill true cost discipline in Europe because Europe is given deference in the organization. The only thing that saves Europe EBIT % is Maeserati.

[/QUOTE]

No it should not be equal, because you have plenty of crucial differences between the two areas that justify different profit margins.
You might feign ignorance about that reality to suit your point of view, but the fact is that there are differences that justify smaller margins in Europe.
Just to name one, european buyers prefer smaller cars that usually carry less profit since they're sold for lower prices and still have to answer to very demanding safety standards.

Ideally the EBIT %'s in North America would be 12% and Europe would be 8%. Those are the values for a company that doesn't gouge their customers. I am not bragging about North America EBIT % - it is way too high right now, because they can, for now, charge obscene prices but this will not be the case in 2023

EBIT totals are what they are - that's on the product portfolio for each region.

Do you want to know what happens when the consumer finds out they bought an overpriced product that has been discounted extensively less than 60 days after they purchased it? Look no further than Tesla, whose insuranced registrations in China the first week have utterly collapsed in January because they abused the Chinese consumer - Tesla owners in China protest against surprise price cuts they missed

I'm sure I will be told that they will cut shifts before they cut prices - sure, ok. But you've now created an artificial price floor that will REALLY limit your pool of buyers. The only scenario then that restores volume/shifts at the plants is the economy reflating. Meanwhile, they're burning the cash they have on foolish EV products that no one will buy in a contracting macro-economic environment. So that's where we're at now.

The adjusted operating income for the first half of 2022 for the US and Europe was respectively 18.1% and 10.4%. AOI is equivalent to the EBIT, so they do provide the information that you claim they're fudging.
So, I am confused. You claim in the same post that Europe should have the same EBIT for the US and for Europe. And in the next sentence you say that it should be 12% in NA, and 8% in Europe.
Yet, the AOI in Europe is superior to those 8%, not to mention the NA AOI. So please help me understand this conceit about NA providing obscene margins above what you find reasonable while bashing Europe for (still) having unreasonable margins but not providing enough?

This is not FCA anymore. You can't complain about Europe's profit margins, or any other geographic region for that matter.

 

[ChargerFan1]

I wouldn't put much stock into any recent profits as they sold literally everything for full pop due to limited production, and as much as they'd like that to continue it will not.

 

[AlexB]

I wouldn't put much stock into any recent profits as they sold literally everything for full pop due to limited production, and as much as they'd like that to continue it will not.

RAM DT is not limited production.
When RAM DT went to full cycle of production, outside Covid lockdown (1st half of 2020), the FCA/Stellantis profit trends started.
Plus PSA came into the deal with More money than Mopar+ actually making money with Opel (something GM couldn’t do for most part of two decades).

 

[ChargerFan1]

First half 2020 was covid lock down. I've heard both Chrysler and Ford now say they'll be sticking with "the pull model" of selling over the push model as its so much more profitable.

Yeah, right.

"Sure Mr Customer, we'll get that Ram ordered right up for you, see you in 6 months!"

Meanwhile Toyota has the lot full of Tundras, that will quickly be sold to Ram customers. To do the pull model every automaker has to be on board, and we know that's not gonna happen.

The RV industry said the same BS "The 35% discounts are gone forever". Already, the lots are packed with inventory (when there was none from 2020-mid 2022), sales have tanked 50% and the massive 40% discounts are back.

Wait until all the car makers have is EV's for people that dont even want them, we aint seen nothing yet as far as cash on the hood.

 

[cygnus]

First half 2020 was covid lock down. I've heard both Chrysler and Ford now say they'll be sticking with "the pull model" of selling over the push model as its so much more profitable.

Yeah, right.

"Sure Mr Customer, we'll get that Ram ordered right up for you, see you in 6 months!"

Meanwhile Toyota has the lot full of Tundras, that will quickly be sold to Ram customers. To do the pull model every automaker has to be on board, and we know that's not gonna happen.

The RV industry said the same BS "The 35% discounts are gone forever". Already, the lots are packed with inventory (when there was none from 2020-mid 2022), sales have tanked 50% and the massive 40% discounts are back.

Wait until all the car makers have is EV's for people that dont even want them, we aint seen nothing yet as far as cash on the hood.

Bingo. They of course won't cancel the EV programs, just delay them, which STLA is really good at.

EV demand for Tesla is broken in Europe/China. They only have one market left to continue their growth/fraud - the US.

 

[ChargerFan1]

Bingo. They of course won't cancel the EV programs, just delay them, which STLA is really good at.

EV demand for Tesla is broken in Europe/China. They only have one market left to continue their growth/fraud - the US.

Its just a political perfect storm for EV's right now - but between now and all these pie in the sky ban dates you'll see government change and either cancel any EV mandates or kick them so far down the road they wont even matter. BMW just announced that they are no longer going to listen to government regarding their future plans, so the cracks are already beginning to form. A car company isn't going to willingly go bankrupt because some politician gets voted out.

 

[cygnus]

Its just a political perfect storm for EV's right now - but between now and all these pie in the sky ban dates you'll see government change and either cancel any EV mandates or kick them so far down the road they wont even matter. BMW just announced that they are no longer going to listen to government regarding their future plans, so the cracks are already beginning to form. A car company isn't going to willingly go bankrupt because some politician gets voted out.

Excellent. Was this recently reaffirmed by BMW? I did some Googling and found this from April 2022 - BMW joins Toyota in denouncing a fully electric future

The cracks are already starting to show - EV sales are collapsing thus far in 2023, for pretty much everywhere except Norway. There's halo model enthusiasm in the US for some vehicles, but very little.

I just did a search on AutoTrader. There are 200+ used Ford Mach E's for sale in Metro Detroit. The People are waking up! Can you hear this all the way in France, STLA?

 

[cgseller]

....A Pacifica successor later this decade that's styled like the Pacifica 2004-2008 (the next Pacifica won't be a minivan, maybe they figure out how to do a sliding door with a crossover), that's also built alongside the Airflow EV and Charger EV? ....

Cygnus, where did you find this information?

 

[cygnus]

Cygnus, where did you find this information?

The woman who runs Chrysler made public comments alluding to the next Pacifica being styled like the old Pacifica a year or two ago.

 

[cygnus]

Bingo. They of course won't cancel the EV programs, just delay them, which STLA is really good at.

EV demand for Tesla is broken in Europe/China. They only have one market left to continue their growth/fraud - the US.

Lmao, Tesla cut prices in the US and Europe by 20% this morning to try and spark demand. Called it!