The Great Stellantis Flop at CES

[cygnus]

A very shaking looking Ram BEV concept that had no mention of the gas engine/range extension? A YouTube Premier of the truck that was almost entirely CGI? I doubt the doors or bed extension make it into production. And if that thing makes it into production by December 31st 2024, it'll be a miracle.

That's two vehicles now they've done intros for that were entirely CGI - the Wrangler wannabe EV, and now this. Not a good look guys, don't announce stuff until you can at least have a prototype mule on stage.

The Peugeot 'car' is an abomination - Peugeot Inception previews future electric cars

Ralph couldn't have possibly let this past his desk - I'm sure he was told to leave the French studio alone.

This is a humiliation ritual, I'm probably done with buying vehicles from this company. Daimler 2.0 - get ready.

Here's how it will go down -

1) First they'll cut shifts to preserve margin.
2) Then they'll cut people because programs aren't yielding enough volume/profit
3) But of course, the European operations will flounder (just like they always have) and there will be no corresponding cuts in Europe
4) Then they'll float spinning off Ram/Jeep to the press, but they obviously won't do it because those are the two profit engines that keep this whole thing afloat. Then they'll kill Dodge and Chrysler and say it was a necessary step to 'right-sizing' US operations.

Just watch.

 

[ChargerFan1]

I don't think its that simple this time around unless sales drop so low that they have no other choice. I think they need dodge volume for STLA LG (among other things) to make any financial sense. Its like that small Cadillac, no clue what its called now, use to be ATS, it uses camaro parts and platform, if they kill camaro then the caddy goes down with it.

As far as losing you as a customer, they lost me years ago when I went to buy another charger SRT and it was double the price of the one I previously had

 

[Ryan]

A very shaking looking Ram BEV concept that had no mention of the gas engine/range extension? A YouTube Premier of the truck that was almost entirely CGI? I doubt the doors or bed extension make it into production. And if that thing makes it into production by December 31st 2024, it'll be a miracle.

That's two vehicles now they've done intros for that were entirely CGI - the Wrangler wannabe EV, and now this. Not a good look guys, don't announce stuff until you can at least have a prototype mule on stage.

The Peugeot 'car' is an abomination - Peugeot Inception previews future electric cars

Ralph couldn't have possibly let this past his desk - I'm sure he was told to leave the French studio alone.

This is a humiliation ritual, I'm probably done with buying vehicles from this company. Daimler 2.0 - get ready.

Here's how it will go down -

1) First they'll cut shifts to preserve margin.
2) Then they'll cut people because programs aren't yielding enough volume/profit
3) But of course, the European operations will flounder (just like they always have) and there will be no corresponding cuts in Europe
4) Then they'll float spinning off Ram/Jeep to the press, but they obviously won't do it because those are the two profit engines that keep this whole thing afloat. Then they'll kill Dodge and Chrysler and say it was a necessary step to 'right-sizing' US operations.

Just watch.

Ram 1500 EV Will Offer a Range Extender Gas Engine, CEO Confirms

The upcoming electric truck will be available with a combustion engine to recharge the battery, as confirmed by Ram's and Stellantis' CEOs.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[redriderbob]

A very shaking looking Ram BEV concept that had no mention of the gas engine/range extension? A YouTube Premier of the truck that was almost entirely CGI? I doubt the doors or bed extension make it into production. And if that thing makes it into production by December 31st 2024, it'll be a miracle.

That's two vehicles now they've done intros for that were entirely CGI - the Wrangler wannabe EV, and now this. Not a good look guys, don't announce stuff until you can at least have a prototype mule on stage.

The Peugeot 'car' is an abomination - Peugeot Inception previews future electric cars

Ralph couldn't have possibly let this past his desk - I'm sure he was told to leave the French studio alone.

This is a humiliation ritual, I'm probably done with buying vehicles from this company. Daimler 2.0 - get ready.

Here's how it will go down -

1) First they'll cut shifts to preserve margin.
2) Then they'll cut people because programs aren't yielding enough volume/profit
3) But of course, the European operations will flounder (just like they always have) and there will be no corresponding cuts in Europe
4) Then they'll float spinning off Ram/Jeep to the press, but they obviously won't do it because those are the two profit engines that keep this whole thing afloat. Then they'll kill Dodge and Chrysler and say it was a necessary step to 'right-sizing' US operations.

Just watch.

Ralph has nothing to do with the French brands nor Alfa Romeo anymore... everything else is under his watch.

The Peugeot Inception wasn't bad looking on the outside. Not big on the steering wheel, but look at Tesla with its yoke.

The Ram 1500 Revolution is a concept to test other innovations. The truck looks good compared to the Silverado EV, but the Sierra EV has a better-looking front end. I am sure the production version will be toned down.

I don't like the Mobilisights business idea. Collecting data from these new vehicles, in which companies want us to integrate our home security, tracks where we go, and our driving habits. Our personal privacy is pretty much shot to hell in the near future. You better watch what you say and do, because someone is always watching.

Stellantis has invested a lot of money in reinventing Chrysler. Chrysler will be the first all-electric Chrysler Group brand and will go after the likes of Tesla. I have no problem with that.

Dodge will continue to be a performance brand. But I don't see many making the jump to an electric muscle car if prices are high. I don't think electric vehicles will take off until solid-state batteries come into play and there is a solid-changing network in place. Thank God for the Hurricane6 engine coming to the cars. I just wish they would have gone for PHEVs or Hydrogen. A HEMI PHEV would have been awesome.

But both Chrysler and Dodge are totally safe.

 

[srm3500]

Hey cygnus, I thought that as well however if you look and the post in the ram section it has the full 1 hour video where they drive and show the real truck just FYI.

One thing I don't get from reading about how cars/trucks are made is if this is to debut next year doesn't the design already have to be done in order to start testing? Maybe Triple T can shed some light on this?
I mean lest just say they wait until next year November to reveal the actual truck people can buy and it starts to ship in March the following year that leaves only a year and a half to change the design and test it in the real world.
I know they are testing range and things like that bu lets say that 2/3 of what they showed on the concept makes production do they have any time left to do major design changes and still test it?

Just the same with the Charger concept, doesn't the design have to be set in stone already as it's supposed to debut this year as a 2024 model? They don't have time for major changes do they?

 

[ChargerFan1]

Considering the current Ram came out in CY 2018, this one is very likely just the next generation truck. Could very well just be gas, hybrid and full EV.

 

[cygnus]

The range extending EV + gas engine wasn't talked about during the presentation so it is highly unlikely production starts with it - IE, 'late availability' option. To be frank, that is the only redeeming aspect of this truck. EV trucks are by design, mall crawlers and will never meaningfully tow in four seasons (forget about EV truck towing in Winter). The only way towing in the winter is feasible with an EV is with the gas engine combo option.

Disappointing to hear that Bob isn't hearing whispers about inline 6 + PHEV. I can live without PHEVs, but mild hybrid (MHEV) incorporation is a must for the rest of the ICE fleet. Someone else here tied that to the next generation ZF production (that will facilitate PHEV and MHEV offerings) coming online in 2024 so...Fit that up with your perceived timing for vehicle refreshers/redesigns.

It sounds like MHEVs won't be a thing until 2025 or 2026 at the earliest.

Scoreboard for STLA plant utilization post-Marchionne passing -

-Belvidere - closing later this year, TBD on what's next. Keep your fingers crossed for Ram HD moving here
- Brampton - down to two shifts from three shifts
- Warren - down to two shifts from three shifts
- Windsor - down to two shifts from three shifts, was planning on going to one shift, but will keep two shifts (for now)

Trend line not looking so hot. This leadership team and fans of this company have another thing coming if they thing EVs are going to put these plants back on three shifts. The only thing that would move the needle is PHEVs or MHEVs.

The Chrysler EV investment is late/overblown. One new model (Airflow) that's built alongside the Challenger EV? A Pacifica successor later this decade that's styled like the Pacifica 2004-2008 (the next Pacifica won't be a minivan, maybe they figure out how to do a sliding door with a crossover), that's also built alongside the Airflow EV and Charger EV? That's just interior fascia and bumper engineering, it's the same vehicle under the covers.

The seven passenger Dodge unibody / Durango replacement is far off. The seven passenger Dodge Body on Frame SUV is taking priority, and they're busy with all the other stuff.

 

[AlexB]

The range extending EV + gas engine wasn't talked about during the presentation so it is highly unlikely production starts with it - IE, 'late availability' option. To be frank, that is the only redeeming aspect of this truck. EV trucks are by design, mall crawlers and will never meaningfully tow in four seasons (forget about EV truck towing in Winter). The only way towing in the winter is feasible with an EV is with the gas engine combo option.

Disappointing to hear that Bob isn't hearing whispers about inline 6 + PHEV. I can live without PHEVs, but mild hybrid (MHEV) incorporation is a must for the rest of the ICE fleet. Someone else here tied that to the next generation ZF production (that will facilitate PHEV and MHEV offerings) coming online in 2024 so...Fit that up with your perceived timing for vehicle refreshers/redesigns.

It sounds like MHEVs won't be a thing until 2025 or 2026 at the earliest.

Scoreboard for STLA plant utilization post-Marchionne passing -

-Belvidere - closing later this year, TBD on what's next. Keep your fingers crossed for Ram HD moving here
- Brampton - down to two shifts from three shifts
- Warren - down to two shifts from three shifts
- Windsor - down to two shifts from three shifts, was planning on going to one shift, but will keep two shifts (for now)

Trend line not looking so hot. This leadership team and fans of this company have another thing coming if they thing EVs are going to put these plants back on three shifts. The only thing that would move the needle is PHEVs or MHEVs.

The Chrysler EV investment is late/overblown. One new model (Airflow) that's built alongside the Challenger EV? A Pacifica successor later this decade that's styled like the Pacifica 2004-2008 (the next Pacifica won't be a minivan, maybe they figure out how to do a sliding door with a crossover), that's also built alongside the Airflow EV and Charger EV? That's just interior fascia and bumper engineering, it's the same vehicle under the covers.

The seven passenger Dodge unibody / Durango replacement is far off. The seven passenger Dodge Body on Frame SUV is taking priority, and they're busy with all the other stuff.

They added Mack Assembly……
Brampton is being overhaul.
Look, I get you don’t like EV’s, but nobody is making you buy one.

 

[patfromigh]

Look, I get you don’t like EV’s, but nobody is making you buy one.

There's a bunch of people at our state legislature that are trying to, and since one party controls everything here they'll probably succeed.

 

[ChargerFan1]

They added Mack Assembly……
Brampton is being overhaul.
Look, I get you don’t like EV’s, but nobody is making you buy one.

Huh? They are banning gas cars by 2035 and the auto makers are already setting up to only produce EV's. We get that you are an investor, but call a spade a spade.

 

[James.A]

Ralph has nothing to do with the French brands nor Alfa Romeo anymore... everything else is under his watch.

The Peugeot Inception wasn't bad looking on the outside. Not big on the steering wheel, but look at Tesla with its yoke.

The Ram 1500 Revolution is a concept to test other innovations. The truck looks good compared to the Silverado EV, but the Sierra EV has a better-looking front end. I am sure the production version will be toned down.

I don't like the Mobilisights business idea. Collecting data from these new vehicles, in which companies want us to integrate our home security, tracks where we go, and our driving habits. Our personal privacy is pretty much shot to hell in the near future. You better watch what you say and do, because someone is always watching.

Stellantis has invested a lot of money in reinventing Chrysler. Chrysler will be the first all-electric Chrysler Group brand and will go after the likes of Tesla. I have no problem with that.

Dodge will continue to be a performance brand. But I don't see many making the jump to an electric muscle car if prices are high. I don't think electric vehicles will take off until solid-state batteries come into play and there is a solid-changing network in place. Thank God for the Hurricane6 engine coming to the cars. I just wish they would have gone for PHEVs or Hydrogen. A HEMI PHEV would have been awesome.

But both Chrysler and Dodge are totally safe.

They seem to be pretty set on a Charger EV coupe - do you still think there will be a gas powered 4 door Charger? Where would this all leave the Chally? As the gas powered coupe alternative to the EV Charger coupe? Would that all be a bit much and convoluted? Value your insight on this one Bob as I'm holding out on getting the next 4 door charger i6 if it is indeed coming end of this year/early 24' Thanks.

 

[cygnus]

I don't think there will be a Charger EV - a four door variant built on the same line will be the Chrysler Airflow EV.

The original battery plant announcement referenced that battery plant would be put in Windsor - Stellantis and LG Energy Solution to Invest Over $5 Billion CAD in Joint Venture for First Large Scale Lithium-Ion Battery Production Plant in Canada | Stellantis

I presume this means that Windsor is the dedicated EV manufacturing facility. No automaker makes EV and ICE on the same line or even same facility for that matter. So that means Windsor will lose the Pacifica (not sure where the Pacifica would be built, or if that Pacifica stops being sold entirely?) and becomes the manufacturing facility for the Dodge Challenger Daytona EV, Chrysler Airflow EV, and Jeep Recon EV. I would guess production would start early in calendar 2025.

 

[cygnus]

From a CBC article (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/wind...nd-stellantis-lges-battery-plant-ev-1.6484328) -

"The future LG Battery plant will be at 9865 Twin Oaks Dr, Windsor, ON N8N 5E8, Canada".

Has construction started? It was referenced in the article that construction would start in Summer/Fall 2022.

 

[cygnus]

They added Mack Assembly……
Brampton is being overhaul.
Look, I get you don’t like EV’s, but nobody is making you buy one.

Mack was approved under Sergio. Brampton is being overhauled for what? The way I read through the tea leaves, Windsor is the dedicated EV facility because the LG Battery plant is next door. Brampton will still be dedicated Charger, Challenger ICE.

 

[James.A]

I don't think there will be a Charger EV - a four door variant built on the same line will be the Chrysler Airflow EV.

The original battery plant announcement referenced that battery plant would be put in Windsor - Stellantis and LG Energy Solution to Invest Over $5 Billion CAD in Joint Venture for First Large Scale Lithium-Ion Battery Production Plant in Canada | Stellantis

I presume this means that Windsor is the dedicated EV manufacturing facility. No automaker makes EV and ICE on the same line or even same facility for that matter. So that means Windsor will lose the Pacifica (not sure where the Pacifica would be built, or if that Pacifica stops being sold entirely?) and becomes the manufacturing facility for the Dodge Challenger Daytona EV, Chrysler Airflow EV, and Jeep Recon EV. I would guess production would start early in calendar 2025.

Granted they are calling the Charger Daytona a concept, but they are getting into trim details now - that's pretty specific to not bring to market, no?

 

[AlexB]

Huh? They are banning gas cars by 2035 and the auto makers are already setting up to only produce EV's. We get that you are an investor, but call a spade a spade.

Huh read A: Stellantis statements, still assume U.S. high ICE mix .
B: Half the United States + CA HD/“Commercial” “loophole”
C: Still can buy a Used ICE vehicle even in U.S. states like CA.

 

[cygnus]

Granted they are calling the Charger Daytona a concept, but they are getting into trim details now - that's pretty specific to not bring to market, no?

The naming to me would then potentially indicate that there will only be a two door offering for the next L-car generation platform for both ICE and EV variants. Why confuse everyone and call the concept the Charger Daytona EV when it only has two doors, when the previous generation Charger had four doors? One of the following is true -

1) The concept naming convention is just a throwaway name and there will be two and four door variants of both the ICE and EV versions of the Charger/Challenger
2) There will _only_ be a two door variant for the EV version, and both two and four door ICE versions...But if the EV version takes the Charger name, like the concept preview, what do you call the two ICE versions?
3) There's a different set of names for both the ICE and EV versions entirely and there could be either 1 EV, 1 ICE or 1 EV, 2 ICE or 2 EV, 2 ICE, etc.

Any info you can share yet Bob?

 

[AlexB]

Mack was approved under Sergio. Brampton is being overhauled for what? The way I read through the tea leaves, Windsor is the dedicated EV facility because the LG Battery plant is next door. Brampton will still be dedicated Charger, Challenger ICE.

Sergio may had thought about it , but Mack was a Manley project (it wasn’t announced until spring 2019).
The company didn’t secure enough surrounding real estate until fall 2019.
Canadian government agreed to fund the overhaul of Brampton that will take 18 months to finish.

 

[Deckard Cain]

Why should they talk about the range extending option or about more specific details when this was a concept to highlight the tech side of Stellantis. There's a reason this was revealed at CES and not at an autoshow.
Instead of venting and moaning about EVs you would do well to remember that.

Also, EVs will improve quite rapidly in the next ten years in terms of range. Texas Instrument is already claiming they can help increase battery range by 20%. There's a lot of engineering low hanging fruits that can be otimized in EV engines and battery packs. And these are things that manufacturers are obviously working on. BMW's next-gen battery packs will offer 30% higher range. If Ram's range is as bad as the F150 they will only have themselves to blame for not starting development sooner to get a better understanding of EV vehicles.

Also spare us with the "European operations will flounder". If there's something that PSA was always focused at and guaranteed was great profit margins and FCA didn't guarantee the same because Marchionne intentionally starved Fiat of new models to make FCA a more attractive merger partner with an european manufacturer (they had a preference for Renault).
VW is european, with barely a presence in the US, without any issue with profits and they sell more EVs in Europe than Tesla. Stellantis has more than 10% profit margin in Europe and they're the third biggest EV seller in Europe.

 

[cygnus]

Hahaha, I will never buy an EV - thanks for playing.

Put your money where your mouth is - how much profit will US operations have produced in 2022 and how much profit will Europe have produced in 2022 when earnings are announced?