TripleT
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Yeah... BoA.... is implementing it. Card went in the drawer.
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Stellantis and LG Energy form Joint-Venture for North American battery production
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ChargerFan1
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Look at this fiasco trying to find a charger for an electric Jag SUV in the UK
patfromigh
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If we keep this up we might have to move the forum to Substack.
patfromigh
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Wrong religion. Go woke or go broke.
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cygnus
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how much does an iPhone 13 Pro cost in Europe again vs the US?
the same is true for pretty much all consumer electronics. You guys are paying through the nose for “standardization”
Deckard Cain
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Yes, we europeans are truly choking with the foot of the tyrannical EU regime on our neck. The genocide of the european population is truly horrendous. Please send Team America to save us.
You are aware that our systems of government are democratic republics or monarchies right? Where do you think I'm writing from? North Korea?
You are aware that having the EU regulatory bodies coming together with automotive corporations to establish a common charging standard is beneficial to all, and was something that the auto-manufacturers also wanted right? The french and german manufacturers strongly pushed for the EU to establish a common charging standard. Which went for CCS instead of Chademo (favoured by Nissan and the japanese).
They pushed for this precisely because then we won't have the problem of having 15 non-compatible charging standards and non-compatible charging networks. It also allows for the faster growth of charging companies since you won't have walled gardens. It also decreases the cost of manufacturing for auto-manufacturers since they can scale up production of models without having to consider all the technical differences of different standards.
Give me something of whatever you're smoking if you think that industry standards in Europe are defined by a "mindless government worker". Regulation and coordination is an essential tool for all stakeholders. Not only consumers, but also governmental bodies, car manufacturers, eletrical companies and charging companies/consortiums.
But hey, apparently I live in a dictatorial regime because I want competent regulatory bodies and governments.
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Car charging is one area where you need standardisation. It’s stupid to allow manufacturers like Tesla to operate their own private network by insisting on a non-interoperable connection. That wastes capital through duplication of infrastructure, and it inhibits competition.
The reason prices look higher over here is that European retail practice has always to quote the price the customer will pay at the checkout, not the price the retailer will get for the item. That means all taxes and charges are included. If it says €929 on the ad on TV, I can go into a store, hand over exactly that amount and walk out with a phone.
Even still, there are a couple of additional costs, but not regulatory: there are around 25 languages spoken in the European Union - you try selling a phone without Swedish in Sweden, or Norwegian in Norway (I picked two countries with high fluency in English deliberately) and see where that goes. That localization effort isn’t a regulatory cost - customers simply won’t buy products that don’t speak their language.
Bad example. The US is a hugely uncompetitive market for telecommunications, with weak enforcement of consumer protections, and so you guys get shafted on tariffs and on handsets as a result. If you’re making a case against government regulation of markets, that’s a really bad place to start from. But in answer to your question, in Ireland an iPhone 13 5G 128 Gbyte is $1085 retail, but if buying for business use, I could claim back the sales tax, leaving me $879 out of pocket - I think that’s actually cheaper than you would have to pay, and mine would be a fully unlocked handset - no contractual obligations or lock-ins.
The reason prices look higher over here is that European retail practice has always to quote the price the customer will pay at the checkout, not the price the retailer will get for the item. That means all taxes and charges are included. If it says €929 on the ad on TV, I can go into a store, hand over exactly that amount and walk out with a phone.
Even still, there are a couple of additional costs, but not regulatory: there are around 25 languages spoken in the European Union - you try selling a phone without Swedish in Sweden, or Norwegian in Norway (I picked two countries with high fluency in English deliberately) and see where that goes. That localization effort isn’t a regulatory cost - customers simply won’t buy products that don’t speak their language.
cygnus
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Lol at at trying to pass off the price of an iPhone 13 vs. an iPhone 13 Pro. Try again.
128GB iPhone 13 Pro in Germany 1150 Euro + 189 EURO VAT = 1339 Euro or $1561 (1 euro = 1.17 USD at time of writing)
128GB iPhone 13 Pro in Michigan (6% sales tax) = $1058.
Congratulations on your standardization, consumer protections, and paying $500 more for the same device.
Deckard Cain
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And that's why europeans prefer Android phones over iPhones and Apple only has a 15.4% marketshare in Europe. We don't buy overpriced walled garden crap.
The prices that Apple charges in European countries are retarded and we know how to use a calculator to understand when we're being ripped off. It has nothing to do with standardization, or consumer protections. It's about understanding that there's a tax-dodging trillion dollar corporation trying to rip us off by over-charging for a product inferior to the competition.
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That 189 Euro VAT you add is allready included in the € 1150 price you quote.
In my country it´s € 1099,90 including VAT for an unlocked 128 GB Iphone 13 Pro.
So is the 128GB Iphone 13 Pro you can buy for that price unlocked?
As KrisW argued there is a definite cost to having to localize their product for 25 languages and it´s very justified that this cost is added to the price in Europe.
When you look at the prices excluding tax in the US you pay $999. In Europe you pay € 908.
With the exchange rate you quoted that would be about $1062.
So about $60 extra in exchange for no carrier lock-in and added localization costs. That seems reasonable to me.
Off course the Michigan citizen pays another €60 in taxes whereas the German citizen pays about $225 in taxes.
But that is the choice about the role of the government made in Europe vs the U.S.
I think most of the people in Europe feel more or less that this bigger role of government is to be preferred and i think most of the people in the U.S. feel the smaller rol of government is preferred.
I do not think one system is inherently better than the other, both have costs and benefits but the most important thing is that the chosen system is supported by the citizens it concerns.
I have no interest in Phones, and made an honest mistake - just like you did when you double-charged the VAT/ USt in your example. As I explained in my post, advertised European retail prices always includes sales taxes. That goes for everything from a cup of coffee to a car.
Anyway, using the correct device, my nearest walk-in retailer sells an iPhone 13 Pro for €1179, including 23% VAT, which is $1379 at the dollar-rate you quote, or $320 more than you would. There’s no market regulation involved in sale of phones - Apple sets its retail price, and customers decide whether or not they want to pay it.
For a counter-example, the just-announced Google Pixel 6 Pro is priced at €899 in Ireland, again including 23% VAT; as opposed to $899 plus local sales taxes in the USA. That’s $1053 vs $954 retail, but the pre-tax price is lower here ($856 vs $899) than in the USA, and as a business user, I’d pay the pre-tax price, not retail.
Now, a phone is no use without a cellular service plan - would you like to compare those prices? If you go down the route where most people actually acquire their phones, you’ll see that it’s cheaper to own any phone over a typical 24 month service contract in Europe than the USA. The reasons for that are because there’s much more competition between operators. Free competition requires regulation and standardisation.
Deckard Cain
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And lets not forget that the tyrannical EU, in-between overseeing the genocide of poor europeans, still has time to impose a minimum warranty period of 2 years for electrical products.
Those tyrants!! *shakes fist*
Those tyrants!! *shakes fist*
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TripleT
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So what your saying is EU people are too ignorant to make their own purchasing decision and need some appointed government worker who got job most likely because of who his father is. Not only deciding what type of connector is on their phone, how long the warranty of their device, and what type of car they are allowed to drive. GOOD FOR YOU.
Leaving purchasing decision up to people I mostly I regard as unqualified. And given that some of my close relative had to escape the EU to avoid two separate gynecides I and many Americans really want to avoid the slippery slope of unqualified makin decision for us.
While I get it you all stayed to embraced the "I am to fragile to have freedom". this country and therefore this market have not. We are a culture founded on the exact opposite, of those who risked there lives to have personal Liberty. So yeah we are the rabble rousers that don't like be told what to do, by anyone.
I find your attitude Dismissive, typical of people who look down on others and feel they should run others live, typical of the EU attitude toward personal freedom.
The wonderful thing about the world is that we can have diversity. You can have your purchasing decisions controlled by others and we can have the market decide.
Apparently, is so foreign concepts to each other that you can try to be a funny and to me just comical, because I find the position impossibly flawed.
Either way..... regardless to of the merits ..... not recognizing that differences in the market is wrong.
Your insight on automotive industry is valuable, but your position on personal liberty frankly untenable. But you do you, and your countrymen do them.
Leaving purchasing decision up to people I mostly I regard as unqualified. And given that some of my close relative had to escape the EU to avoid two separate gynecides I and many Americans really want to avoid the slippery slope of unqualified makin decision for us.
While I get it you all stayed to embraced the "I am to fragile to have freedom". this country and therefore this market have not. We are a culture founded on the exact opposite, of those who risked there lives to have personal Liberty. So yeah we are the rabble rousers that don't like be told what to do, by anyone.
I find your attitude Dismissive, typical of people who look down on others and feel they should run others live, typical of the EU attitude toward personal freedom.
The wonderful thing about the world is that we can have diversity. You can have your purchasing decisions controlled by others and we can have the market decide.
Apparently, is so foreign concepts to each other that you can try to be a funny and to me just comical, because I find the position impossibly flawed.
Either way..... regardless to of the merits ..... not recognizing that differences in the market is wrong.
Your insight on automotive industry is valuable, but your position on personal liberty frankly untenable. But you do you, and your countrymen do them.
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TripleT
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4400... Dell 5820...
Want to talk about no standards Monitors... I swear this 32" curved monitor has 8 different connectors.
And the reason is it keep evolving something better keeps coming along.
I need Franco III from the EU commission on Monitor technology, son Franco the 2nd, Grandson of Arch Duke Franco, and his unelected and appointed group of regulators to dictate to Monitor makers a single magical cable for all time to protect my purchasing decision for the entire world. Thanks Franco.
Want to talk about no standards Monitors... I swear this 32" curved monitor has 8 different connectors.
And the reason is it keep evolving something better keeps coming along.
I need Franco III from the EU commission on Monitor technology, son Franco the 2nd, Grandson of Arch Duke Franco, and his unelected and appointed group of regulators to dictate to Monitor makers a single magical cable for all time to protect my purchasing decision for the entire world. Thanks Franco.
Zero Tolerance: Attacking Other Members
It shouldn't have to be said, but attacking other members is absolutely unacceptable here. These attacks can take the form of name calling, mocking, or any other derogatory behavior. Since apparently that rule isn't being taken seriously, if you attack someone else on this forum, you will now...
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Deckard Cain
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No, that's not what I'm saying. Reading up and learning about the foundation of the EU, its evolution along the years, and how it is organized precisely to avoid dictatorships and preserve the independence of the member states can be daunting. I don't expect you to do it. But comments like these and your previous ones have a derisive tone that I usually do not associate with you.
Your close relative did not have to escape the European Union to avoid two separate genocides. You never had attempted genocides in the European Union. The genocides that occurred in WW1 (against the armenians) and WW2 (against the Jews, gypsies, slavs, homosexuals, etc) weren't perpetrated by the European Union. They were perpetrated by the Ottoman Empire and the Nazi Regime respectively. The European Union began as a way to try to prevent that another war like those two would ever happen again in Europe and it has been successful in preventing wars from occurring between Member States and brought economic prosperity, freedom, democracy and increased rights to the populations of its member states.
That is more of a problem of perspective. You distrust "government workers" (I'll assume you are referring to US Federal Agencies) so you don't want them to tell you what to do.
We do not distrust european institutions. Simply because the EU actually forces national governments to be more transparents. We distrust "government workers" so we demand that they improve the quality of public services instead of demanding that public services get dismantled.
If you think my attitude was dismissive then go read back the previous posts and see who began with the derisive comments. Maybe consider adjusting your comments if you do not wish to receive dismissive and sarcastic replies. I replied with a very easy solution to the problem of the lack of compatibility of charging stations and the fragmentation of the charging landscape that was implemented on Europe because the automotive industry and the EU considered it more advantageous. You replied making fun of me because of this.
My purchasing decisions are as much controlled by others as yours. You seem to fail to understand that we have free markets, private companies and vibrant economies.
But if you want to know: I am a social democrat that believes in strong public service alternatives in specific sectors of the economy to provide competition against private companies. I believe in strong regulators and oversight of private corporations, to prevent the rise of monopolies and of big corporations crushing small innovative competitors. I believe in taxing private corporations in the countries where they do business by the tax code of those countries and not by shifting profits to fiscal paradises. I believe in having strong guidelines that promote the safety, repairability and health of consumers. In the US political spectrum the closest politician I find is Bernie Sanders.
If you don't like that, then add me to your ignore list.
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@TripleT , @Deckard Cain
Boy do Electric Vehicle discussion do brings out the electric sparks of passion !
Boy do Electric Vehicle discussion do brings out the electric sparks of passion !
TripleT
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So your ignoring the Soviets or do you believe that the Eastern European that were part of the 40-60M don't count. I assume you don't
We distrust the government and want them involved in as little of our life as possible. History has shown to it corrupts every time. Lets not pretend that these magical efforts weren't made the past to have just as dire consequences.
Here the deal .... I DONT CARE WHAT YOU DO I THE EU. You do what you want. As long as we don't have bail you out again. You do you.
The specific problem I a have YOU, is that you seem to want lay criticism on how we do it here, ignoring the cultural difference, and the market push back the will occur with that approach.
Then use totalitarian language around regulation....... it can't be ignored.
Try this approach ...... Sing the virtue of your Approach and allow use the same.
I'll most public sector management is less efficient, wrong, and uncountable. That OK, you all are making the trade off. Leave us alone.
We will take the flaws of freedom, for the flexibility, efficiency, and freedom to innovate.
I don't spend a darn penny I don't want to unless heavy hand of government takes it from pocket.
We distrust the government and want them involved in as little of our life as possible. History has shown to it corrupts every time. Lets not pretend that these magical efforts weren't made the past to have just as dire consequences.
Here the deal .... I DONT CARE WHAT YOU DO I THE EU. You do what you want. As long as we don't have bail you out again. You do you.
The specific problem I a have YOU, is that you seem to want lay criticism on how we do it here, ignoring the cultural difference, and the market push back the will occur with that approach.
Then use totalitarian language around regulation....... it can't be ignored.
Try this approach ...... Sing the virtue of your Approach and allow use the same.
I'll most public sector management is less efficient, wrong, and uncountable. That OK, you all are making the trade off. Leave us alone.
We will take the flaws of freedom, for the flexibility, efficiency, and freedom to innovate.
I don't spend a darn penny I don't want to unless heavy hand of government takes it from pocket.