Should Ram Enter The Small Compact Truck Market Again?

Should Ram Enter The Small Compact Truck Market Again?​

North Americans Want Small Trucks Again...​

Today, Ford Motor Company rolled out their all-new Maverick compact pickup. In what appears to be an appealing package, the Maverick is the answer for those who are looking for a more affordable option without sacrificing capability and good fuel economy that can fit in most garages. North Americans from the United States and Canada, have been asking for a true compact for years and it appears Ford has delivered.

Should Ram Enter The Small Compact Truck Market Again?

Today, Ford Motor Company rolled out their all-new Maverick compact pickup. In what appears to be an appealing package, the Maverick is the answer for those who are looking for a more affordable option without sacrificing capability and good fuel economy that can fit in most garages. North...

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[wunjee]

Again, nobody is willing to buy 2 door outside of Chevy. Wrangler sells way better as 4 door, and Stellantis is not a charity.

A Wrangler is not a work truck. A Wrangler is a lifestyle toy. See my avatar. I'm very aware of what a Wrangler is. It's no wonder it sells better as a 4-door because it appeals to people in the age range where kids are a thing, so 4-doors are a must. It also costs so much now that it's hard to justify not using it as a daily driver. If a Wrangler was still $20,000 you could probably justify having one as a toy and having a separate daily driver (because nobody WANTS to DD a Wrangler..) but they cost so much ($+-35,000 for a base 2-door with almost no options..?) that most people can't have both. If they want the lifestyle toy they also have to daily-drive it, and that's why the 4-door outsells the 2-door.

Your guy towing around landscaping equipment or a pool cleaner doesn't need 4 doors on his work truck.

Our fleet is still full of 2-door F-150s and F-250s but even those are $30k+ with vinyl seats and no carpeting.. We're phasing out or small 4-cylinder manual Colorados because they're 15 years old now. There's nothing to replace them with except big F-150s. A 2-door RAM 700 would be a perfect replacement as a bare-bones work truck. We're already using the RAM Promaster City, which is based on the same platform as the RAM 700..

 

[AlexB]

You seemed to have missed the word practical in my statement. Sedans can also have a useful shape, it's up to the designers. This would make sedan practical.

Working for a rental fleet, I have become very familiar with Nissan products. All their sedans look alike. The crazy thing is as one goes up in size of the Nissan sedan offerings the interior room seems to stay the same. This is because they make the center console larger as the sedan offering grows larger and this eats up interior volume. It just seems there isn't much difference between a Versa, Sentra and Altima. Maybe whats under the hood is different, but it's still connected to a CVT.

The irony of efficient power trains is that the croosovers and other utility vehicles have more room for batteries. I suspect that also drives the move away from sedans. Lets face it, nobody is going to rush out to buy an econobox when the next fuel "crisis" hits, as consumers have done the past. Not when there are hybrid crossovers or smaller pickup trucks like the Ford Maverick available, which have combined utility and efficiency.

Getting back to the topic at hand, Ram should offer the Toro/1000 here. I have seen some of the revues on YouTube for the 2022 Toro. I think it should be federalized and sold here. It will have to be built somewhere closer than Brazil however, because of logistics and production line capacity.

Sedan are not appealing, especially with Electrics.

 

[TripleT]

Sedan are not appealing, especially with Electrics.

it just less efficient to have low slung vehicle with a tapered back. 5 to 7 inches in the middle raised cargo area is just better use of material and vertical space. The suspension tech, electronic babysitter, artificially low speed limits, and advanced power train... Next is materials have made the Sedan a styling choice better for a second vehicle or performance vehicle. It no longer is the best way to move people and goods.... The better form is winning in the marketplace.

That said anyone here has known I a big advocate of offering everything and letting the market speak, give us the RAM 700 and 1000 and lets see if wins.... UTEs are very popular in other parts of the world and seems reasonable the some would choose them here. I stinks that the Koreans and Ford are beating us to market when we already had the platform and sheetmetal done.

 

[AlexB]

A Wrangler is not a work truck. A Wrangler is a lifestyle toy. See my avatar. I'm very aware of what a Wrangler is. It's no wonder it sells better as a 4-door because it appeals to people in the age range where kids are a thing, so 4-doors are a must. It also costs so much now that it's hard to justify not using it as a daily driver. If a Wrangler was still $20,000 you could probably justify having one as a toy and having a separate daily driver (because nobody WANTS to DD a Wrangler..) but they cost so much ($+-35,000 for a base 2-door with almost no options..?) that most people can't have both. If they want the lifestyle toy they also have to daily-drive it, and that's why the 4-door outsells the 2-door.

Your guy towing around landscaping equipment or a pool cleaner doesn't need 4 doors on his work truck.

Our fleet is still full of 2-door F-150s and F-250s but even those are $30k+. We're phasing out or small 4-cylinder manual Colorados because they're 15 years old now. There's nothing to replace them with except big F-150s. A 2-door RAM 700 would be a perfect replacement as a bare-bones work truck. We're already using the RAM Promaster Cities, which is based on the same platform as the RAM 700..

Still nobody wants a two-door outside of Chevy.
It’s not Stellantis best interest to sale Wrangler nor RAM in the priced in ranges you mentioned.

Wrangler volume has sky rocketed with 4 doors, and buyers loved those options soo much where the company found they didn’t have enough options. Hence changes with the JL.

 

[wunjee]

Still nobody wants a two-door outside of Chevy.
It’s not Stellantis best interest to sale Wrangler nor RAM in the priced in ranges you mentioned.

Wrangler volume has sky rocketed with 4 doors, and buyers loved those options soo much where the company found they didn’t have enough options. Hence changes with the JL.

Tell that to my fleet of 2-door F-150s.. But again, even these start at $30,000. Putting them out of range for a lot of people who just want a bare-bones basic work truck that IS NOT their daily driver.

Wrangler volume was skyrocketing before the 4-door even existed. By the time the TJ was phased out, it sold 80,000 units in it's final model-year, as opposed to the YJ's +-60,000 in it's final model year.

The 4-door opened it up to a lot more people but the sales numbers were climbing even before that. The reason the 4-door Wrangler is so popular is, again, most people can't afford a Wrangler AND a daily driver anymore. So the Wrangler has to be both. For better or worse. If you could still get a 2-door Wrangler for $20,000, I bet the story would be a lot different. But as it is, my 2010 base Wrangler is worth more than that even though I only paid $21,900 for it..

And again, a Wrangler is not a work truck. A Wrangler is a lifestyle vehicle. Wrangler sales do not in any way, shape or form indicate how a work truck would sell when they're meant for two entirely different segments.

The fact that 2-doors do still sell is obvious when both the new Bronco and the new Defender are both offered in 2-doors. If 2-doors didn't sell, the 2-door Bronco and the Defender 90 - both of which are lifestyle toys just like the Wrangler - wouldn't exist.

 

[AlexB]

Tell that to my fleet of 2-door F-150s.. But again, even these start at $30,000. Putting them out of range for a lot of people who just want a bare-bones basic work truck that IS NOT their daily driver.

Wrangler volume was skyrocketing before the 4-door even existed. By the time the TJ was phased out, it sold 80,000 units in it's final model-year, as opposed to the YJ's +-60,000 in it's final model year.

The 4-door opened it up to a lot more people but the sales numbers were climbing even before that. The reason the 4-door Wrangler is so popular is, again, most people can't afford a Wrangler AND a daily driver anymore. So the Wrangler has to be both. For better or worse. If you could still get a 2-door Wrangler for $20,000, I bet the story would be a lot different. But as it is, my 2010 base Wrangler is worth more than that even though I only paid $21,900 for it..

And again, a Wrangler is not a work truck. A Wrangler is a lifestyle vehicle. Wrangler sales do not in any way, shape or form indicate how a work truck would sell when they're meant for two entirely different segments.

The fact that 2-doors do still sell is obvious when both the new Bronco and the new Defender are both offered in 2-doors. If 2-doors didn't sell, the 2-door Bronco and the Defender 90 - both of which are lifestyle toys just like the Wrangler - wouldn't exist.

Gladiator will royal out sell JT-JY, and JL does Camry type volume.
Here’s Mike Manley presentation from 2018

 

[wunjee]

Gladiator will royal out sell JT-JY, and JL does Camry type volume.
Here’s Mike Manley presentation from 2018
View attachment 4683

Not even close. JL sold 201,000 units in 2020. Camry sold 294,000 units in 2020.

Camry sold almost 100,000 more units in 2020. Even as it's sales are plummeting as it competes with crossovers, even within Toyota's own lineup.

Look at RAV4 sales. 430,000 in 2020...

The sedan is dying.

Nothing competes for Wrangler sales because at the moment the Wrangler is a one-of-a-kind lifestyle toy.

And that presentation doesn't tell us anything because RAM can't sell what they don't offer. If anything, that presentation supports that a sub-$30,000 truck would sell like crazy considering that the majority of RAM's sales are under $33,900. And that's probably made up almost entirely of base model 1500s.

If you offered the same people buying base RAM 1500s an even cheaper work truck or fleet vehicle you don't think they'd buy it?

Also, does that presentation include fleet volume?

 

[AlexB]

Not even close. JL sold 201,000 units in 2020. Camry sold 294,000 units in 2020.

Camry sold almost 100,000 more units in 2020.

And that presentation doesn't tell us anything because RAM can't sell what they don't offer. If anything, that presentation supports that a sub-$30,000 truck would sell like crazy considering that the majority of RAM's sales are under $33,900. And that's probably made up almost entirely of base model 1500s.

If you offered the same people buying base RAM 1500s an even cheaper work truck or fleet vehicle you don't think they'd buy it?

Also, does that presentation include fleet volume?

RAM DS was 2018 , presentation shows the changes they made with the DT.
Apparently you can’t read the 4% rate single cab rate.

 

[wunjee]

RAM DS was 2018 , presentation shows the changes they made with the DT.
Apparently you can’t read the 4% rate single cab rate.

Keep ignoring the fact that the enormous majority of their sales were below $34,000. What market is buying those trucks? And does that market require a 4-door truck? If they do why are they driving 30 year-old 2-door Mazdas and Toyotas today? Could it be because there's absolutely nothing comparable on the market? And a RAM 1500, even a 2-door, isn't comparable to a 1993 Tacoma..

Like I said, the only thing that's useful in that presentation is the fact that the enormous majority of RAM buyers want low-priced trucks. They can't sell what they don't offer, and they don't offer a small 2-door truck, therefore that presentation cannot tell you that a small 2-door truck wouldn't sell because it's not represented in the data..

There's a big difference between "Nobody wants a 2-door truck" and "Nobody wants an expensive full-size 2-door truck" and all you've shown is that the later is true. Even then I'd argue that it's not because, once again, the business I work for has an entire fleet of 2-door F-150s...

 

[AlexB]

Keep ignoring the fact that the enormous majority of their sales were below $34,000. What market is buying those trucks? And does that market require a 4-door truck? If they do why are they driving 30 year-old 2-door Mazdas and Toyotas today? Could it be because there's absolutely nothing comparable on the market? And a RAM 1500, even a 2-door, isn't comparable to a 1993 Tacoma..

Like I said, the only thing that's useful in that presentation is the fact that the enormous majority of RAM buyers want low-priced trucks. They can't sell what they don't offer, and they don't offer a small 2-door truck, therefore that presentation cannot tell you that a small 2-door truck wouldn't sell because it's not represented in the data..

There's a big difference between "Nobody wants a 2-door truck" and "Nobody wants an expensive full-size 2-door truck" and all you've shown is that the later is true. Even then I'd argue that it's not because, once again, the business I work for has an entire fleet of 2-door F-150s...

It’s okay they buy a 30 year old Truck.
You term “”Expensive “” isn’t mine nor Stellantis view of expensive.

 

[patfromigh]

It is highly unlikely the Ram 700 (Fiat Strada) would ever be sold here. The 700 is on a different platform from the other FCA products offered here. We did get the Fiat 500 for awhile, but that's it.

Stellantis needs to rationalize their LCV lineup. FCA and PSA have been cooperating on vans for years, but even as the merger talks progressed the LCV cooperation seemed to be unwinding. While the merger has been achieved, Fiat now goes it alone with the Tofas built Doblo/ Ram PMC, the mid-range Fiat van offering is built by Renault, and Tofas builds the Euro Fiorino as well. The problems I see with the Stellantis light commercial vehicle mix are as follows. The Doblo/Ram PMC is clearly superior to the PSA sourced vehicles in the same segment. The Chrysler Pacifica is a unique offering, and share little with the other vans. The manufacturing agreement with Tofas is restrictive and results in a very limited choice of options for the Ram ProMaster City in our market.

The reason I bring all this up is the logical way to have a small regular cab commercial vehicle is to offer the Doblo Chassis-Cab here. Stellantis can not simply federalize the Doblo chassis-cab or import the Work Up, because of the production agreements with Tofas and also the Work Up is subject to the Chicken Tax. (Chassis-cab trucks are exempt from the Chicken Tax.) I don't know how keen Stellantis management is on expanding the Ram PMC lineup in our region. The Opel version of the Doblo was quickly replaced by a badged engineered Peugeot van when PSA took over. PSA's solution for small pickups is to badge engineer Chinese built vehicles.

The Doblo and Toro share a lot of chassis and suspension engineering. They both have SUSW features up front, while using the robust multi-link rear suspension in the rear. The Doblo/Ram PMC was designed with alternate fuels in mind, there is room for CNG tanks or batteries. Because of the production agreements with Tofas, building the Doblo anywhere else is out of the question. The Doblo built in Latin America is an older design.

The Fiat Strada/ Ram 700 built in Brazil also offers a van version as well. as offering two cab styles. The Fiat version is also named Fiorino, but shares only the name with the Euro van. Maybe Stellantis should offer variants of the Toro like what they've done with the Strada. This would involve vehicles strictly for our side of the ocean. There would never be enough demand for the US and Canada alone, but with Latin American added into this perhaps such a proposal is feasible. Production would have to come from Mexico to satisfy the market regulations involved and that makes this an expensive proposition. Convincing a hostile Stellantis management is the hard part.

 

[wunjee]

It’s okay they buy a 30 year old Truck.
You term “”Expensive “” isn’t mine nor Stellantis view of expensive.

"Expensive" is obviously >$34,000, according to FCA's own data, since the vast majority of their trucks that sold were under that mark. And when you look at how much a RAM 1500 actually costs, that tells me that the vast majority of their sales were very sparsely-optioned units. I wonder why..

Ford just told us what they expect "expensive" to be in this segment. Given that they're one of the only ones releasing a truck into this segment in the US, I'd say they get to define that. Stellantis doesn't offer anything in that segment in the US and as such their view on what is or isn't expensive in that segment in the US simply doesn't matter.

 

[redriderbob]

Not even close. JL sold 201,000 units in 2020. Camry sold 294,000 units in 2020.

Camry sold almost 100,000 more units in 2020. Even as it's sales are plummeting as it competes with crossovers, even within Toyota's own lineup.

Look at RAV4 sales. 430,000 in 2020...

The sedan is dying.

Nothing competes for Wrangler sales because at the moment the Wrangler is a one-of-a-kind lifestyle toy.

And that presentation doesn't tell us anything because RAM can't sell what they don't offer. If anything, that presentation supports that a sub-$30,000 truck would sell like crazy considering that the majority of RAM's sales are under $33,900. And that's probably made up almost entirely of base model 1500s.

If you offered the same people buying base RAM 1500s an even cheaper work truck or fleet vehicle you don't think they'd buy it?

Also, does that presentation include fleet volume?

Most of those Camry sales come from California too.

 

[AlexB]

"Expensive" is obviously >$34,000, according to FCA's own data, since the vast majority of their trucks that sold were under that mark. And when you look at how much a RAM 1500 actually costs, that tells me that the vast majority of their sales were very sparsely-optioned units. I wonder why..

Ford just told us what they expect "expensive" to be in this segment. Given that they're one of the only ones releasing a truck into this segment in the US, I'd say they get to define that. Stellantis doesn't offer anything in that segment in the US and as such their view on what is or isn't expensive in that segment in the US simply doesn't matter.

Look at the pricing that has red blocking ($39,000 and above) the presentation shows the why beyond changes they made with the RAM DT vs RAM DS (been classic since DT launch).

If one believes the opportunity is $39,000 and above+limited capacity you don’t invest resources going the opposite direction. Hence the RAM TRX and all the other options & goodies undertaken with RAM DT.

Also there’s no two door on RAM DT.
Finally, you seem to be connected to two doors beyond “ why are they driving 30 year-old 2-door Mazdas and Toyotas” that you proclaimed earlier (one that I put a very high discount on).

 

[TripleT]

Most of those Camry sales come from California too.

Most Camry are sold a zero or no margin. The plant manager was frog walked out of the plant in Georgetown because they were behind converting the plant to make SUVs.

NEVER use total sales numbers to justify success, that has more to do with volume capacity then whether it has demand.

2 doors have a low take rate and low margin. Using capacity to produce low margin vehicles is not good for anyone even only small slice of consumer, as actually it raises the cost of in demand configurations

 

[Bili]

Ram should send future Brazilian pick to North America. Of course because of chicken tax it must be made in North America.

 

[wunjee]

They can get around the chicken tax the same way Mercedes does. Ship the vehicle here unassembled and assemble it in the US. Then it's technically "made in America". Mahindra did this with the Roxor too. Even though all the major assemblies were manufactured in India, the final product was assembled in the US, allowing them to claim it was "made in America".

Also I just got to thinking. There must be a massive surplus on RAM ProMaster City and Transit Connect window glass and rear seats somewhere...

 

[TripleT]

They can get around the chicken tax the same way Mercedes does. Ship the vehicle here unassembled and assemble it in the US. Then it's technically "made in America". Mahindra did this with the Roxor too. Even though all the major assemblies were manufactured in India, the final product was assembled in the US, allowing them to claim it was "made in America".

Also I just got to thinking. There must be a massive surplus on RAM ProMaster City and Transit Connect window glass and rear seats somewhere...

every Korean made in Alabama

 

[AlexB]

Ford trouble for chicken tax:

Redirect Notice

Started at $250 million U$D
Now fine jump to $1.3 billion U$D:UPDATE 1-Ford says it could face $1.3 billion in new penalties in Transit imports

 

[wunjee]

The irony there is amazing.