What's new
By:
Mopar Insiders Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Next-Generation Grand Cherokee PHEV Powertrain Mule

I do have a solution though.
"Not for sale in the state of California."
They are forced to buy the CARB compliant vehicles, they simply do not get other models and the state can refuse to register non-compliant vehicles for use on public roads.
That ought to help their tourism industry.
:ROFLMAO:
 
VoiceOfReason said:
To some degree, yes. I'm not doubting that manufacturers, not just FCA, have bitten the electric bullet. I'm not debating that. I've seen the five year plan.
Click to expand...

I'm not seeing much BEV products in the 5 year plan. PHEV yes, MHEV yes. Actually I'm fan of a MHEV future especially for a P2 solutions where electric motor is on the transmission input.

The legislative directives driving electrification were based on assumptions that are now known to be wrong.
Click to expand...

Are they wrong? Not if you ask anyone from Europe.

And that is from me on this subject because we will go into politics.

Anyone notice the new Corvette? No hybridization, a 0-60 time of less than 3 seconds and a starting price under $60,000.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Way too optimistic numbers for its HP/weight ratio unless they have miraculous launch control. And 60k is not price for a sub 3 seconds model.
 
Blown7 said:
For my two cents... I may be willing to purchase a electric motor 8 speed ZF transmission in a new Trackhawk... IF either system will run independent of each other if the other fails....

Supposedly the performance is better...

But if a electric battery system fault causes the ICE side of the transmission to stop working at all.. then I'm pissed.
Click to expand...
Let's break reliability into two segments: mechanical reliability and software reliability.
  • electronic drive is much more mechanically reliable than IC, simply because of fewer moving parts, much less maintenance required for equivalent work done.
  • software reliability is hit or miss, depending upon the quality of code and integration with hardware. This might prove problematic in the initial roll-out phase.
 
Bili said:
Are they wrong? Not if you ask anyone from Europe.
Click to expand...
- "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy
- The "assumptions" I am referring to are the adoption rates of electric vehicles sales, which are a known value now and are nowhere near what was projected five or so years ago when the 35 to 50 mpg decisions were made. They were predicting upwards of 25% of new vehicle sales being electric. The U.S. has never reached 4% and Europe is even worse at roughly half that. Of the last seven years, five of them saw sales of electric vehicles decline as a percentage of new cars sold.
So, yes, they were wrong. Very wrong.
The rationale driving the legislation is another issue - I have significant volumes of research on the topic. And yes, even more wrong are the reasons behind the legislation - tremendous corruption involved.

Bili said:
Yeah. Way too optimistic numbers for its HP/weight ratio unless they have miraculous launch control. And 60k is not price for a sub 3 seconds model
Click to expand...
Then you need to watch the new Chevrolet Stingray Corvette unveiling. Those are the numbers advertised by Chevrolet. The fact that they appear to be unrealistic speaks to the impressiveness of the accomplishment. The pre-orders have already sold out from what I understand. It is a very small, low, light, two seater vehicle. It bears some similarities to the FactoryFive racing kit from a few years ago based on the C5 Corvette. The performance is realistic and the price is a matter of public record.
 
VoiceOfReason said:
I do have a solution though.
"Not for sale in the state of California."
They are forced to buy the CARB compliant vehicles, they simply do not get other models and the state can refuse to register non-compliant vehicles for use on public roads.
That ought to help their tourism industry.
:ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
yeah, punitive solutions are always the most effective right? /s

I also have a bone to pick with your characterization of BEVs as being government driven. When you factor in all the tax rebates given to petroleum industry as well as all the healthcare and environmental costs associated with the burning of gas/diesel that are picked up by society (government) as a whole, its clear to me that EVs are getting the short stick when it comes to owner incentives. At the same time, you really can't tell me that (regardless of what you think of their product) Tesla isn't effectively marketing its products to an eager population.

My wife is no hippy by any means, but she's interested in buying a Leaf, cause she thinks they're cool looking. The electric thing is a fringe benefit as far as shes concerned. I'm the one that's chomping at the bit for a BEV truck.
 
Freshforged said:
yeah, punitive solutions are always the most effective right? /s

I also have a bone to pick with your characterization of BEVs as being government driven. When you factor in all the tax rebates given to petroleum industry as well as all the healthcare and environmental costs associated with the burning of gas/diesel that are picked up by society (government) as a whole, its clear to me that EVs are getting the short stick when it comes to owner incentives. At the same time, you really can't tell me that (regardless of what you think of their product) Tesla isn't effectively marketing its products to an eager population.

My wife is no hippy by any means, but she's interested in buying a Leaf, cause she thinks they're cool looking. The electric thing is a fringe benefit as far as shes concerned. I'm the one that's chomping at the bit for a BEV truck.
Click to expand...
I'm not a fan of subsidies in either direction, especially considering organizations whose profits are measured in billions, but that is a "Tu Coque" (you too) fallacy. I'm not defending petro company subsidies - get rid of them. Use profits to fund exploration.
As far as "environmental costs" go - show me your research and I will show you mine. My research comes from multiple highly respect PhDs from some of the world's most pre-eminent positions at some of the most prestigious universities and organizations on the globe. I don't cite journalists and their opinions, nor political organizations and their deceit, but scientists and their data.

As far as Tesla goes. Are they profitable? No. Heavily subsidized, they sell green credits to other manufacturers, yet are still struggling financially. I don't doubt there are people who favor them, but they are very much the minority. It reminds me of many sci-fi shows that get cancelled. The fans are passionate enthusiastic followers of certain shows, but there just aren't enough people watching the show in general to justify keeping it on the air.

I do not oppose researching, developing, producing, and selling electrified vehicles. I draw the line where I see arbitrary government mandates meddling with market dynamics based on false information and assumptions that have been empirically proven false. I also oppose legislation punishing organizations for choices their customers make (like charging FCA hundreds of billions in Europe and $77 million in the U.S. because even though they offer CAFE compliant vehicles their customers instead bought trucks and SUVs - as if they have the ability to channel customers into what they want them to buy). Ultimately, it is the consumer's choice - as it should be. If they want to punish someone, punish the purchaser (which will cause an uproar that would ultimately lead to a repeal of the policies - but they know that, which is why they punish the manufacturers).
 
The lead acid system is ancient and is parasitic to the powertrain.... that is all I am saying. Better solutions will be welcome in the marketplace.

VOC is debating the entire produce rotational energy by making water hot with some sort of thermal reaction, turning into rotational motion, using that rotational motion into electricity, at great lose transporting it great distances, store it in inefficient manner, turn it back into rotational energy... Versus have mobile thermal reaction and mobile rotational energy..... The point is well taken but already lost... There are all these now magical rotation energy source coming, best is gravity and water but that has lost favor...

But sometimes the best solution is lost to propaganda it just is.... Like do you really believe that the .015% additional green house gases have a measurable effect on the climate of the planet in light of the massive and variable Natural inputs? Does not matter a bit because that is what the people in charge have decided.
 
Last edited:
TripleT said:
that is what the people in charge have decided
Click to expand...
That is what the people who used to be in charge have decided. Their decisions, and the assumptions upon which they were based, are currently under review - as is the legality of CARB effectively dictating policy to the rest of the country.
On one hand, the new rash of electric vehicles will be a good thing. When they reach production then sit unsold on dealer lots for six to eighteen months with incentives, the evidence will be irrefutable and the legislation will have to adjust to reality.
The historical precedent for market demand reversing legislation is prohibition.

2021-2022 we will know.

Dave Zatz, from . . . some other site, once stated that companies lacking a patent portfolio for electrical vehicles will be left behind and cited the “cost of doing business in California” as the justification for the claim.

That statement was from July, 2014.

Here we are, five years later, still can’t get electric cars up to 4% of new car sales.
 
Last edited:
For me people cite cost

Well this is a real story about aircraft batteries...

We have used Lead Acid for a century.. cost is cheap.. for a 24 volt aircraft battery about $2000 dollars

Size for size a new company has created a Lithium Ion battery that does the same thing.. only better.... but at a cost of well over $16,000.

A big jump

TB44 Advanced Lithium-ion Battery | True Blue Power®

So when does my pocketbook scream enough is too much?
 
Fiat Chrysler Automobiles CEO Mike Manley said the automaker will not have to pay fines for failing to comply with tougher European CO2 regulations in 2019 and 2020.
 
Bili said:
Fiat Chrysler Automobiles CEO Mike Manley said the automaker will not have to pay fines for failing to comply with tougher European CO2 regulations in 2019 and 2020.
Click to expand...

I stole this from Auto News
"FCA will be compliant because of a regulatory credit deal with Tesla, the forthcoming debuts of plug-in hybrid versions of the Jeep Compass, Renegade and Wrangler, as well as the addition of an all-new full-electric Fiat 500 and the arrival of more efficient combustion engines, the executive said. "

So basically it could also be FCA's way of avoiding a cash outflow to governments worldwide by "trying" to sell electric vehicles ,, even if they do sit on dealer lots.

I guess the bean-counters have run every scenario thru and advised FCA that even if the "public" (in a nod to Freshforged/Voice of Reason) doesn't want electric vehicles it just makes money sense....
 
Bili said:
Fiat Chrysler Automobiles CEO Mike Manley said the automaker will not have to pay fines for failing to comply with tougher European CO2 regulations in 2019 and 2020.
Click to expand...
That may depend on how many of the electric/hybrid cars are sold - not sure.
Previous fines were not based the percentage of fuel efficient vehicles available, but the percentage of fuel efficient vehicles sold.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top