Full-size RAM Suv

[shoulderboards]

Curious why RAM has chosen to ignore the Suburban-Tahoe full-size suv market? I would think an suv built on the RAM 1500 & 2500 chassis would be a worthy competitor to the big GM models. Many owners of big pickups would especially like a capable suv to tow their various trailers. Imagine a RAM 2500 suv with Cummins power!

 

[loebrandy]

Curious why RAM has chosen to ignore the Suburban-Tahoe full-size suv market? I would think an suv built on the RAM 1500 & 2500 chassis would be a worthy competitor to the big GM models. Many owners of big pickups would especially like a capable suv to tow their various trailers. Imagine a RAM 2500 suv with Cummins power!

Possibly the parent company doesn't want to cannibalize another brand, e.g. just saw a youtube review of Jeep Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer with the new hurricane engine. I'd imagine it shares a lot with Ram platform, and the two would just be competing.

 

[shoulderboards]

According to a good friend who works at a Dodge-Jeep-Ram dealer, the Grand Wagoneer is a big flop that no one is buying. One reason he said, is the fact that it only comes in a half-ton version like a Ram 1500 with a more modest towing capacity than if it were available on a 2500 chassis. I would think Stellantis could build a Ram suv on the 2500 chassis to appeal to those who find the Grand Wagoneer unacceptable for towing purposes. Much like Chevrolet and GMC, which are both GM vehicles but are sold separately.

 

[TripleT]

According to a good friend who works at a Dodge-Jeep-Ram dealer, the Grand Wagoneer is a big flop that no one is buying. One reason he said, is the fact that it only comes in a half-ton version like a Ram 1500 with a more modest towing capacity than if it were available on a 2500 chassis. I would think Stellantis could build a Ram suv on the 2500 chassis to appeal to those who find the Grand Wagoneer unacceptable for towing purposes. Much like Chevrolet and GMC, which are both GM vehicles but are sold separately.

What does your friend think the Fords are built on?

 

[bill burke]

Calling the Wagoneer a flop is premature and inaccurate. Launching a whole new line in an established and very sophisticated segment is froth with issues and missteps. It will take time for Jeep to fine tune these models and build a market share that meets expectations. Going through a “ is it a Jeep or is it a Wagoneer” perception problem that needs clarification and that takes time.
Overall a good product with lots of room to exploit and capitalize on for Jeep...opps....Wagoneer.

 

[shoulderboards]

Sorry if my initial comment on a potential RAM suv got hijacked by the Jeep forum as that was not the intent. It seemed to me that RAM has an opportunity to capitalize on the success of it’s exceptional line of pickups by expanding the offerings to include full-size suv models that would appeal to the many followers of the RAM brand. While GM has light-duty full size suv’s by Chevrolet, GMC and even Cadillac, they have not sold a heavy duty, ie; 2500 series suv for a number of years. I also belong to an Airstream trailer owners group and I have heard many others there comment how they would ditch their various 2500 series pickups in a heartbeat if a similar 2500 based suv were available that could competently pull a large travel trailer, boat or other heavy trailer. It appears to me there is an opportunity for RAM to successfully fulfill the needs of a market segment not currently addressed by any competitors.

 

[TripleT]

i'd think a custom coachwork company would be a better exploration of that market.

 

[Costa]

Sorry if my initial comment on a potential RAM suv got hijacked by the Jeep forum as that was not the intent. It seemed to me that RAM has an opportunity to capitalize on the success of it’s exceptional line of pickups by expanding the offerings to include full-size suv models that would appeal to the many followers of the RAM brand. While GM has light-duty full size suv’s by Chevrolet, GMC and even Cadillac, they have not sold a heavy duty, ie; 2500 series suv for a number of years. I also belong to an Airstream trailer owners group and I have heard many others there comment how they would ditch their various 2500 series pickups in a heartbeat if a similar 2500 based suv were available that could competently pull a large travel trailer, boat or other heavy trailer. It appears to me there is an opportunity for RAM to successfully fulfill the needs of a market segment not currently addressed by any competitors.

A RAM brand SUV, interesting as the Wagoneer is built on the RAM 1500 frame in the Warren MI factory. The 6.4L V8 was detuned for the Grand Wagoneer yet it has a lot more HP and Torque available to increase the towing capacity in the design if they so desire.
Having a 'sister' SUV in the RAM line wouldn't be a big leap, once the Wagoneer brand is officially seperated/launched. As you mentioned, GM has three different branded Large/Lux SUVs based on the same fundimentals. Key is as others mentioned, it takes time to establish the first SUV line. Once that's done, then they can add the others going forward.

Fingers crossed they realize the market doesn't want a straight 6 or V6 twin turbo for pulling stuff. They restricted the "primary" line of Grand Wagoneers to the 6 cylinders in 2023 model, then had to open up Obsidian only models with the 6.4L HEMI to get some sales going that dropped off after the IL 6/V6 restriction. That should help them learn if they do build the RAM SUV, buyers want the V8, end of story (as a buyer of the 2022 GW3 w/V8, and reading comments on the other forums, that's what I will buy and see from others. Hope they do make the RAM SUV and use it as lessons learned from Wagoneer.

 

[TripleT]

Government regulations have already killed he Hemi, along with age and bumping up its potential.

The I6 is a beast and has plenty of room for it, interesting to call it dead when it only just starting when the EV mandates eventually kill that motor also it will be looked back with great fondness. It will take people time to catch up to understand then new engine in superior.

If one needs to tow past the 1500 potential it is very narrow segment, therefore extremely small segment that would want a tow hitch instead of a fifth wheel, a third row, and wants to use the inefficient gas engine instead of the diesel engine. That corporate payback is extremely small.

It is a EXTREME (more complex) V8 bias tick tick tick .... to call towing people want the V8 period.... WRONG tow people want the I6, period to the point it is famous. Mopar people want the Diesel engine. Mopar I6 through history have been famous in truck applications not the V8s they were famous in the muscle cars.

One might have had a point if one pointed to the need to have a Cummin version SUV for RAM instead of the extremely misguided focus on the Hemi to Hurricane switch, one might have had a point..... but again you run into the transition from a tow hitch to 5th wheel ..... SUV isn't 5th wheeling.

 

[shoulderboards]

A RAM brand SUV, interesting as the Wagoneer is built on the RAM 1500 frame in the Warren MI factory. The 6.4L V8 was detuned for the Grand Wagoneer yet it has a lot more HP and Torque available to increase the towing capacity in the design if they so desire.
Having a 'sister' SUV in the RAM line wouldn't be a big leap, once the Wagoneer brand is officially seperated/launched. As you mentioned, GM has three different branded Large/Lux SUVs based on the same fundimentals. Key is as others mentioned, it takes time to establish the first SUV line. Once that's done, then they can add the others going forward.

Fingers crossed they realize the market doesn't want a straight 6 or V6 twin turbo for pulling stuff. They restricted the "primary" line of Grand Wagoneers to the 6 cylinders in 2023 model, then had to open up Obsidian only models with the 6.4L HEMI to get some sales going that dropped off after the IL 6/V6 restriction. That should help them learn if they do build the RAM SUV, buyers want the V8, end of story (as a buyer of the 2022 GW3 w/V8, and reading comments on the other forums, that's what I will buy and see from others. Hope they do make the RAM SUV and use it as lessons learned from Wagoneer.

Thanks for the informative comments. Personally, and in hearing from others, the strongest selling points favoring the introduction of a RAM suv are the current strength of the brand itself which lends to an expansion of models capitalizing on that strength. Second, RAM can be smarter than GM and offer a 2500 series SUV with a 6.4L gas V8, and more importantly, the option of the 6.7L Cummins diesel, a game-changer for RAM.

 

[TripleT]

Thanks for the informative comments. Personally, and in hearing from others, the strongest selling points favoring the introduction of a RAM suv are the current strength of the brand itself which lends to an expansion of models capitalizing on that strength. Second, RAM can be smarter than GM and offer a 2500 series SUV with a 6.4L gas V8, and more importantly, the option of the 6.7L Cummins diesel, a game-changer for RAM.

Again, how big is this market? Who is these people who need the towing capacity beyond 10,000lbs that want to tow with hitch? What are the actual number of 3 row, hitch, only 10,000lb plus towing people... real numbers.

Then who makes this vehicle that you have specified.

2023 Nissan Armada Towing Capacity: 8,500 pounds

2023 Chevy Tahoe Towing Capacity: 8,400 pounds

2023 Ford Expedition Towing Capacity: 9,300 pounds

2023 Dodge Durango Towing Capacity: 8,700 pounds

2023 Toyota Sequoia Towing Capacity: 9,520 pounds

2023 Chevy Suburban Towing Capacity: 8,300 pounds

Seems to me the Grand Wagoneer has the group covered.

I do believe the next Durango will offer something with similar towing capability as a more affordable price, But the idea that the Jeep doesn't have the field covered based on published information is just false.

As the need for Ram with higher capablity .... I still trying to figure out how you fit a 5th wheel on a SUV.

 

[shoulderboards]

Those like myself who regularly tow larger trailers know that the gross weight of the trailer is only one aspect of the total towing capability of the vehicle pulling that trailer. The primary number where every one of the vehicles mentioned above is inadequate is the load capacity or gross vehicle weight rating (GVW).
My 25 foot Airstream weighs approximately 7,000 pounds fully loaded, which theoretically falls within the towing capacities above. The devil is in the details and the tongue weight pressing down on the tow hitch is a little over 1.000 pounds however. If you take any half-ton based suv, add the combined weight of passengers and cargo in the back you will be at or close to it’s maximum allowed payload capacity. By then dropping a 1,000 pound trailer tongue onto the rear end of that suv it will be seriously overloaded and negatively effect it’s ability to operate safely as a combined unit with the trailer. This is where the typical half-ton or 1500-based suv is inadequate for many towing situations and a higher payload capacity is required.

 

[TripleT]

Those like myself who regularly tow larger trailers know that the gross weight of the trailer is only one aspect of the total towing capability of the vehicle pulling that trailer. The primary number where every one of the vehicles mentioned above is inadequate is the load capacity or gross vehicle weight rating (GVW).
My 25 foot Airstream weighs approximately 7,000 pounds fully loaded, which theoretically falls within the towing capacities above. The devil is in the details and the tongue weight pressing down on the tow hitch is a little over 1.000 pounds however. If you take any half-ton based suv, add the combined weight of passengers and cargo in the back you will be at or close to it’s maximum allowed payload capacity. By then dropping a 1,000 pound trailer tongue onto the rear end of that suv it will be seriously overloaded and negatively effect it’s ability to operate safely as a combined unit with the trailer. This is where the typical half-ton or 1500-based suv is inadequate for many towing situations and a higher payload capacity is required.

This why there is a net score the includes all the factors that include all the variables you mentioned included and still the Ford and GM models to not exceed the ratings of Grand Wagoneer. The Ram itself is several thousand pounds better than the Wagoneer.... this may have to do with solid rear axles(which could be fixed with a tow only model), and the heavier model related to being a SUV. The fact remains that the Chevy even though on the 2500 frame, which is heavier btw still doesn't exceed the rating for the Wagoneer. What you are asking for is something that no one else has chosen to build. And I would think there is a reason for that.... that this too small a segment to serve.

If it exists it better served by a custom coach work.

Bottom line seems your friend is misinformed about the capability of other vehicles in the segment. Neither the Chevy, GMC, Lincoln, or Ford have a higher tow capacity. The Grand Wagoneer is not a high volume vehicle its a high margin vehicle.