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Where has AlexB been? Stellantis stock tanking

Stellantis - smallest market of all the Big 3.
 
Bili said:
@AlexB

You may not believe but this was brewing for almost 2 years.
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Saw it coming from a mile way, tried to warn people - no one listened. It's either electrically assisted V8s/I6s or series hybrids for every Jeep and Ram, or this company is DOA. No existing Jeep / Ram buyers care for the existing product portfolio, except for weirdos who seem to think this company can succeed with 2L engines with PHEVs (like Dave & Erik @ Allpar along some people here who somehow can't read a sales chart).

FWD STLA Large with HEV, I6s without some degree of electronic assist (because no one cares about the I6's +40 HP/torque or the 1MPG in increased efficiency vs Hemi...they would care if it was paired with an electric motor), STLA Medium, or EVs = failure. STLA needs to get this through their thick skulls before its too late.

It's not hard guys -

I6 Mild Hybrid - intro trim that gets you better fleet MPG
I6 PHEV - mid/upper level trim
GME T4 Series Hybrid STLA Large - figure out how to make the packaging work for next Grand Cherokee & mid-size pickup built at Belvidere

Clean sheet 4L V8 - PHEV only, for upper level trims, for Charger / Challenger refresh in MY 2029.

Unfortunately I can confidently say NONE of what I just cited even exists for Model Year 2027...They're thinking about, maybe, 2028.5 - first STLA Large refresh that will land with next Grand Cherokee / mid-size pickup (both of which are delayed to perhaps make this work). @redriderbob - let me know if my prognostications or timing is off.
 
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A new version of the ZF8 transmissions have an electric motor right in them, so there's your I4 and I6 hybrids. I "believe" it adds around 250lbft of torque which would help the performance cause. Even better if you could get 50-100 miles pure EV range in some applications too. The V8 will also have to work in the 2500/3500 trucks, hence why I say just put a 4" crank in the BGE block, make a 7.0L NA for the trucks and slap a blower on it for the all new 1000hp 426 Hemi Charger. Voila
 
cygnus said:
Saw it coming from a mile way, tried to warn people - no one listened. It's either electrically assisted V8s/I6s or series hybrids for every Jeep and Ram, or this company is DOA. No existing Jeep / Ram buyers care for the existing product portfolio, except for weirdos who seem to think this company can succeed with 2L engines with PHEVs (like Dave & Erik @ Allpar along some people here who somehow can't read a sales chart).

FWD STLA Large with HEV, I6s without some degree of electronic assist (because no one cares about the I6's +40 HP/torque or the 1MPG in increased efficiency vs Hemi...they would care if it was paired with an electric motor), STLA Medium, or EVs = failure. STLA needs to get this through their thick skulls before its too late.

It's not hard guys -

I6 Mild Hybrid - intro trim that gets you better fleet MPG
I6 PHEV - mid/upper level trim
GME T4 Series Hybrid STLA Large - figure out how to make the packaging work for next Grand Cherokee & mid-size pickup built at Belvidere

Clean sheet 4L V8 - PHEV only, for upper level trims, for Charger / Challenger refresh in MY 2029.

Unfortunately I can confidently say NONE of what I just cited even exists for Model Year 2027...They're thinking about, maybe, 2028.5 - first STLA Large refresh that will land with next Grand Cherokee / mid-size pickup (both of which are delayed to perhaps make this work). @redriderbob - let me know if my prognostications or timing is off.
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I can comment about powertrain strategy the whole day.

The story is. Ship had sailed with Sergio.

Advent of Manley was the end of many electrification projects, many hybrids, but also many engine variations, of course in the first place as a hybrid.

Then came Peugeot and killed more of it.

I'm not sure how careful are you tracking new model launches. It's valid for both Europe and North America.

Engine list is very limited.
Usually only, maybe 2 internal combustion engines for a car model.

In US if a car has a GME T6 then it doesn't have GME T4 and vice versa.

And launch of new Cherokee with EP6 HEV with unproven transmission which was developed by Peugeot's Chinese owned partner.

It's similar in Europe. Electric first launches then later (very often 12 months later/
) comes 1.2 turbo MHEV.
Some bigger cars like STLA Medium based will get 1.6 PHEV as FWD but those are put on hold indefinitely due to...

I can go all day. I'll type more if I've got inspiration and if I have time to do it.
I typed the same things many times, it's all over again.
 
Mopar426 said:
A new version of the ZF8 transmissions have an electric motor right in them, so there's your I4 and I6 hybrids. I "believe" it adds around 250lbft of torque which would help the performance cause. Even better if you could get 50-100 miles pure EV range in some applications too. The V8 will also have to work in the 2500/3500 trucks, hence why I say just put a 4" crank in the BGE block, make a 7.0L NA for the trucks and slap a blower on it for the all new 1000hp 426 Hemi Charger. Voila
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They have electric motor if you order them as such. But usually you must buy them from ZF and not build under a licence.
Stateside production in North Caroline(I think it's there) starts in 2025. Not sure about China.
It was 2022 in Europe I think. Not sure at what scale.

Transmissions are ZF 8HP60 and ZF 8HP80
Sufix MH for MHEV and PH for PHEV.
25kw electric motor for MHEV. Basically Ford F150 HEV level at much lower voltage.
For PHEV it's up to 160kw from what I can remember.

Meanwhile big mag Carlos put a 3rd gen ZF built at house behind the GME T6/Hurricane 6.
Hemi always had ZF built by ZF, lower torque versions which were for Pentastar were or are made in house.
 
So I dug into this a bit more - unfortunately, STLA is a in a difficult position with ZF MHEV / PHEV for Jeep/Ram. ZF 8HP80 + PHEV on the 2025 BMW X5 gets 52 miles on EV only mode. But...

The problem is production + licensing for 4th Gen...I don't think ZF is letting anyone build the MHEV or PHEV variant. In any case, 4th Gen ZF 8 Speed MHEV/PHEV is capped at 200K / year production for US production @ Graycourt. They are charging an arm and a leg for these, way more than 3rd Gen.

The unit economics for this don't work with ZF PHEV or MHEV. They will probably try to use cheap, non-ZF, MHEV and the 1.6L / 2L engines for intro trims. Mid/upper level Jeep/Ram trims are better off going GME T4 series hybrid / range extended EVs, with their own motors. From what I understand, they are looking at this now for 2028/2029 MY. If they can do this with LFP + fast charging (https://gmauthority.com/blog/2024/09/saic-gm-and-catl-launch-fastest-charging-ev-battery-so-far/), they have a winner.
 
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@cygnus

STLA is getting cheap and stingy. At least that was the way under Carlos. I'm hopping for a change in direction.


REEV? Much smaller engine would be sufficient or even a naturally aspirated engine.


New Cherokee is FWD based, transverse engine although on STLA Large platform.
STLA Large have many very different versions.
 
Bili said:
@cygnus

STLA Large have many very different versions.
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None of which, to my knowledge, have the powertrain that would entice existing Jeep, Ram, or Dodge owners. Their strategy is -

"we're abandoning high-displacement engines because we didn't think Trump would win, and our pricing for the 2025+ MY for an Inline 6 is $15K+ more than what you paid 3-4 years ago for a 5.7L Hemi. Sorry we got it wrong! Oh, here's a 2026 Grand Cherokee with suped up turbo four engine, enjoy! Here's a 3L I6, with AWD (which we finally got around to) with a bunch torque that no one cares about, hope you like it!. Hope you like our EV, with an infotainment so dated that it has a second of lag time between menu selections!"

Sorry guys, you can keep it, along with your dated PHEV 4xE powertrain. The only bright spot is the series hybrid, but I'm guessing for Wagoneer, it will be every bit of $80K+. This company is cooked until 2028, at least.

By the way, guess which company amongst all the Big 3 has the most H1Bs? The H1B great replacement started after Sergio died. Be sure to mention that to Dave & Erik @ Allpar, I'm sure they'll find a way to blame Sergio for this.
 
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cygnus said:
None of which, to my knowledge, have the powertrain that would entice existing Jeep, Ram, or Dodge owners. Their strategy is -

"we're abandoning high-displacement engines because we didn't think Trump would win, and our pricing for the 2025+ MY for an Inline 6 is $15K+ more than what you paid 3-4 years ago for a 5.7L Hemi. Sorry we got it wrong! Oh, here's a 2026 Grand Cherokee with suped up turbo four engine, enjoy! Here's a 3L I6, with AWD (which we finally got around to) with a bunch torque that no one cares about, hope you like it!. Hope you like our EV, with an infotainment so dated that it has a second of lag time between menu selections!"

Sorry guys, you can keep it, along with your dated PHEV 4xE powertrain. The only bright spot is the series hybrid, but I'm guessing for Wagoneer, it will be every bit of $80K+. This company is cooked until 2028, at least.

By the way, guess which company amongst all the Big 3 has the most H1Bs? The H1B great replacement started after Sergio died. Be sure to mention that to Dave & Erik @ Allpar, I'm sure they'll find a way to blame Sergio for this.
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Had Sergio not stepped up there would be no Chrysler. Anyone blaming Sergio, especially over a half decade since his death is an F'N idiot.
 
cygnus said:
None of which, to my knowledge, have the powertrain that would entice existing Jeep, Ram, or Dodge owners. Their strategy is -

"we're abandoning high-displacement engines because we didn't think Trump would win, and our pricing for the 2025+ MY for an Inline 6 is $15K+ more than what you paid 3-4 years ago for a 5.7L Hemi. Sorry we got it wrong! Oh, here's a 2026 Grand Cherokee with suped up turbo four engine, enjoy! Here's a 3L I6, with AWD (which we finally got around to) with a bunch torque that no one cares about, hope you like it!. Hope you like our EV, with an infotainment so dated that it has a second of lag time between menu selections!"

Sorry guys, you can keep it, along with your dated PHEV 4xE powertrain. The only bright spot is the series hybrid, but I'm guessing for Wagoneer, it will be every bit of $80K+. This company is cooked until 2028, at least.

By the way, guess which company amongst all the Big 3 has the most H1Bs? The H1B great replacement started after Sergio died. Be sure to mention that to Dave & Erik @ Allpar, I'm sure they'll find a way to blame Sergio for this.
Click to expand...

Ex FCA has many powertrains in their portfolio. I don't see it as an issue.

The issue is stop of development for some powertrains, stop of many electrified powertrain development many years ago and so on.
Times can't be run backwards. And I think that FCA has lost many years of development.

And... And above all we will see push of PSA sourced powertrain in the new Jeep Cherokee.
Jeep Cherokee is FWD based. Engine is 1.6 EP6, so a turbo 1.6 Inline 4 coupled to a Punch Powertrain (Chinese owned) transmission which they call it a DCT while in its operation it's not one although it has 3 wet clucthes with one of them acting as a reductor. Basically it has 4 gear ratios plus reductor.

You know... Development of 1.5 turbo GSE was scaled back.
New generation of GME T4 is many years behind the schedule.
There is no Miller version of GME T4 an there is no one in the plans.
GME T6 doesn't exist in the mildly boosted form.
And where the **** is ZF 8HP 4th gen as a MHEV and PHEV. It doesn't exist as a HEV because P2 HEV doesn't make much sense alongside P2 MHEV.

A lot of downscale of projects have started under Manley.
Under Tavares a lot of engineers have been fired at both Italian and American R&D centers with some of them basically closed.
People form "Sergio's" Giorgio project have more or less abandoned FCA and are now working for Ferrari, Lamborghini...

Engine strategy? Under PSA it's more like offer one engine option, maybe two and that's it.

V8? Hmh. It's not good to get rid of it as they did but certainly they were in need to scale it down. And don't forget that usually V8s are an image maker while in total amount of sales they don't have high percentage.

But IMO Stellantis have totally wrong engine and powertrain strategy although they have a good base.
GSE and GME in various forms are brand new. But GSE has been abandoned in Europe and US...
Italians they have V6 90°. Could they make V8 out of it? I believe they can but I'm more than sure that they will not.
Even 2.2 Inline 4 diesel is almost bulletproof and they have developed all aluminium version which has been abandoned.
 
You mention the 1.6L and 2.0, which are fine for Europe, but a total non-starter for the US strategy they have pursued for the last five years - high priced, high margins Jeeps. You cannot sell vehicles for $50K+ with anything less than a V6, in WK2 volumes - 250K units/year.

Sure, you can sell your 2026 WL74/75 four banger Grand Cherokee - prepare for less than 125,000 sales/year, for both models. They spent Billions to build a second plant plant in Detroit, the first one in decades, only to watch WL74/75 sales, combined, fall short of what WK2 used to do. It's insane.

Even the 3L I6, without either MHEV or PHEV, isn't really enticing for most existing Jeep, Dodge, and Ram owners. The problem is - it's not going to get better anytime soon. 2028, maybe? I hope the US division can survive and make a decent series hybrid powertrain for MY 2028/2029, because in the absent of that, we are entering very dark days for US STLA.
 
@cygnus

It dependa on the competitors. What are they offering.

Is it being cross shops with BMW X5. We are talking about WL.
If answer is yes then you should offer similar powertrains. There is no place for naturally aspirated V6 especially if 2.0 turbo is superior in every way.
And so on and on.

It's pretty much simple.

Same with new Cherokee. Is it competitor to RAV4 or CR-V or some other Toyonda or maybe competitor to a new Audi Q5. Of Q5 is you answered then platform choice is wrong but still they can offer P2 MHEV with 2.0 turbo running on a Miller cycle.
And so on and on.

As I said. It's pretty much simple.

@TripleT
 
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