Range Extended EV (Series Hybrid / REEV) for STLA Large?

[cygnus]

Is there a series hybrid in the cards, similar to that of the Ram 1500 Ramcharger, for STLA Large?

As a reminder -

STLA Frame - Ram 1500 and Wagoneer. Big vehicles, obviously, with enough room for both a battery and gas tank.

STLA - Unibody. Grand Cherokee, new Dodge Charger/Challenger, upcoming Durango, upcoming Cherokee, upcoming Chrysler SUV.

The technical issue to solve here is of course, packaging (you still need a battery big enough to have a 75 mile EV range to be classified as an EV) and having this meet crash/safety standards.

To my knowledge, there are no other E-segment SUVs from any automaker that have a series hybrid.

Could STLA be the first? I would say this a bit further out though, most likely with the first significant refresh of STLA Large in (calendar) 2028.

 

[Mopar392]

The technology is there and has been offered on the smaller Jeeps with the 4Xe models.
So I don’t think it’s difficult to have in any of the STLA Large products if the platform support the technology.
It’s even better, IMO, than the pure EV crap.

 

[cygnus]

The 4xE that exists today in the Wrangler, Grand Cherokee, and Pacifica...very different than what a series hybrid would consist of.

You'd get a series hybrid by - removing the transmission, adding a generator, adding motors, adding a larger battery. You'd have to shrink the gas tank a bit.

 

[cgseller]

@cygnus is right, we are talking about a ReBEV (Range-extending Battery Electric Vehicle) where the battery and electric motors are the drivetrain and some other method adds range extending (such as a ICE, or Solar, or road-embedded mag charge, etc).

If I were the principle engineer on this design, I would be doing what I could to future proof where the vehicle can be ReBEV or BEV depending on the political drama of the week. If you could design a vehicle that can handle both situations, it could really ebb/flow to the unstable consumer market in the US and separate yourself from Kia, Toyota, VW.

 

[Mopar426]

I think what the International Scout is doing may move the needle. It uses EV motors and has over 1000lbft of torque but uses a 4 cylinder gas engine as the generator.



Question is can it be reliable or is it just going to be a typical VAG product

 

[cygnus]

@cygnus is right, we are talking about a ReBEV (Range-extending Battery Electric Vehicle) where the battery and electric motors are the drivetrain and some other method adds range extending (such as a ICE, or Solar, or road-embedded mag charge, etc).

If I were the principle engineer on this design, I would be doing what I could to future proof where the vehicle can be ReBEV or BEV depending on the political drama of the week. If you could design a vehicle that can handle both situations, it could really ebb/flow to the unstable consumer market in the US and separate yourself from Kia, Toyota, VW.

Exactly!

 

[cgseller]

I think what the International Scout is doing may move the needle. It uses EV motors and has over 1000lbft of torque but uses a 4 cylinder gas engine as the generator.

View attachment 10765

Question is can it be reliable or is it just going to be a typical VAG product

I did wonder why a Pentastar was used for the RamCharger. I'm sure there is a reason and my Mechanical Engineering skills are too weak to postulate and I'm sure the engineers have a very specific reason around power output, regulations, or mfg capacity...

 

[patfromigh]

The reason they could use a ReEV system in the upcoming Ramcharger is the size of the vehicle allows everything to fit. Everything in this case being batteries, front and rear e-motors, IC engine with generator and a gas tank. Up to this date the GM Volt ReEV, which is front drive only, and the Chinese brands with rear drive only are smaller but practical ReEV. (For example the larger Leap products)

The BYD Shark is a midsize pickup built on a frame and is still fairly sizable. It uses a 1.5 liter, gas turbo four cylinder as a generator charging the batteries, which in turn feeds front and rear e-drive motor units. The battery is about half the size of what Ram is saying their Ramcharger will have.

Here is Chrysler Corporation ENVI line up which was showcased on the 2009 auto show circuit.

The Dodge in the center is a pure battery electric and the rest are all ReEV models. All of these vehicles are rear drive, even the two Jeeps on the right. The IC engine generator was a tiny two cylinder which proved too small in the BMW i3 let alone these larger concept vehicles. The problem was and is fitting everything under the hood. Shrinking the IC engine proved impractical. Mazda's rotary range extender has been kept from our market, but may prove the exception.

In another thread there is some posts discussing the possibility of Chrysler unknowingly solving the under the hood space problem 25 years ago with their Citadel concept. The Citadel is based on the LH platform and the LH sedans were notable for their longitudinal engine placement using a transverse transaxle adapted to their longitudinal arrangement. Instead of a 4 speed automatic alongside the 3.5 V6 there is a generator in that concept.
See post #64 in this thread - BREAKING: Chrysler C6X (CA) Electric SUV Development Suspended

The concept uses a conventional transmission behind the engine powering the rear wheels. Twenty five years ago there wasn't an agreed standard to what the voltage a mild hybrid would use. This concept seems to be closer to a contemporary 48 volt mild hybrids in operation rather than the 5th generation Toyota hybrid systems or the Pacifica PHEV. The generator along side the engine contributes to solving the space problem. Eliminating the transmission and driveshaft and replacing the rear differential with the production e-drive unit used in the pure battery electric Wagoneer S and Chargers also saves more space. Not using the front e-drive unit, but instead using the Citadel Concept's front e-axle system is also space efficient.

I wonder how large of an e-motor they can fit in the e-Flite used in the Pacifica hybrid?

 

[patfromigh]

I did wonder why a Pentastar was used for the RamCharger. I'm sure there is a reason and my Mechanical Engineering skills are too weak to postulate and I'm sure the engineers have a very specific reason around power output, regulations, or mfg capacity...

According to one of the developers it was a simple solution. The engine is in production and proven. It also runs the Atkinson Cycle in the Pacifica PHEV, but final specifications for this engine when used in the Ramcharger remain to be seen.

 

[cgseller]

The reason they could use a ReEV system in the upcoming Ramcharger is the size of the vehicle allows everything to fit. Everything in this case being batteries, front and rear e-motors, IC engine with generator and a gas tank. Up to this date the GM Volt ReEV, which is front drive only, and the Chinese brands with rear drive only are smaller but practical ReEV. (For example the larger Leap products)

The BYD Shark is a midsize pickup built on a frame and is still fairly sizable. It uses a 1.5 liter, gas turbo four cylinder as a generator charging the batteries, which in turn feeds front and rear e-drive motor units. The battery is about half the size of what Ram is saying their Ramcharger will have.

Here is Chrysler Corporation ENVI line up which was showcased on the 2009 auto show circuit.
View attachment 10769
The Dodge in the center is a pure battery electric and the rest are all ReEV models. All of these vehicles are rear drive, even the two Jeeps on the right. The IC engine generator was a tiny two cylinder which proved too small in the BMW i3 let alone these larger concept vehicles. The problem was and is fitting everything under the hood. Shrinking the IC engine proved impractical. Mazda's rotary range extender has been kept from our market, but may prove the exception.

In another thread there is some posts discussing the possibility of Chrysler unknowingly solving the under the hood space problem 25 years ago with their Citadel concept. The Citadel is based on the LH platform and the LH sedans were notable for their longitudinal engine placement using a transverse transaxle adapted to their longitudinal arrangement. Instead of a 4 speed automatic alongside the 3.5 V6 there is a generator in that concept.
See post #64 in this thread - BREAKING: Chrysler C6X (CA) Electric SUV Development Suspended

The concept uses a conventional transmission behind the engine powering the rear wheels. Twenty five years ago there wasn't an agreed standard to what the voltage a mild hybrid would use. This concept seems to be closer to a contemporary 48 volt mild hybrids in operation rather than the 5th generation Toyota hybrid systems or the Pacifica PHEV. The generator along side the engine contributes to solving the space problem. Eliminating the transmission and driveshaft and replacing the rear differential with the production e-drive unit used in the pure battery electric Wagoneer S and Chargers also saves more space. Not using the front e-drive unit, but instead using the Citadel Concept's front e-axle system is also space efficient.

I wonder how large of an e-motor they can fit in the e-Flite used in the Pacifica hybrid?

Articulate and informative post. It was amazingly pleasant to read something that was avoid of political bloat, opinions, or hate. Thank you very much!

 

[patfromigh]

Wow! For a senile old guy I remembered where the source is from a year ago. It was on a long video podcast from TFL Talk on Youtube. Twenty minutes of this video podcast is an interview, starting at the 1:08 mark, with with chief engineer for the Ramcharger project, Joe Tolkacz.

 

[cygnus]

Its weird though they're referencing a April 2025 Job 1 date for the Ramcharger and we're not seeing any test vehicles in Metro Detroit yet...typically we start seeing them 6 months before initial builds.

 

[patfromigh]

I'm posting the technical highlights of the Pacifica's PHEV system. This is from 2017.

TRANSMISSION: EFLITE ELECTRICALLY VARIABLE
Electrically variable transmission with dual-motor EV drive capability
Motor A Power: Estimated 84 hp (63 kW)
Motor B Power: Estimated 114 hp (85 kW)

HYBRID BATTERY PACK
High voltage, 96 cell Li-ion, 16kWh total energy, 360 V nominal​

I don't know what Ram plans to do for the design of the midsize pickup. If they borrow from the Charger design and use a longitudinal drive train setup, the Pentastar V6 would probably be a good fit. Doubling the battery size would bring close to what the BYD Shark has. The eFlite could be modified in the same way the 42LE was to power the front wheels, with the rear wheels driven by the same EDM from the battery electric version. This would duplicate an ReEV at a lower cost and lighter weight. Ram could possibly use the ZF 8-speed PHEV transmission, but I think the eFlite allows for greater battery only range. If the midsize truck uses a transverse setup for the IC engine it would have to be a four cylinder.

It is quite sad that Stellantis let this hybrid system get long in the tooth while Toyota and Ford leap frogged Chrysler using systems originating from the same evolutionary path. Then again we haven't seen the mystery 3-speed hybrid electric transmission.

 

[Mopar426]

Dont quote me but I believe the Ram would need to be re-crash tested if they decided to swap a 4cyl into it as a generator - and its unfortunate that they didn't.

 

[cygnus]

My guess is that you have to use a four cylinder as your generator power source in anything REEV that isn't a body on frame. Body on frame can fit the V6, unibody can't. Unibody would need a four cylinder for the power source.

The three cylinder...might work for a series hybrid unibody vehicle - maybe C/D segment. Depends if the engine can produce enough power for the generator to give the battery enough juice.

 

[patfromigh]

OK, it's time for me to eat crow. I neglected the axiom that availability = obsolescence. I was digging around the Magna website trying to find the specs for the hybrid transaxle which Stellantis dumped for their Punch junk. Embarrassingly, I also found that Magna engineers have developed an "ICE-Hybrid-BEV" system that uses an 800V architecture. I thought that a 800v system would require a huge IC engine for an onboard power source. I was wrong, and I hope the power train engineers still have a Magna business card in their Rolodex.

So it is possible to have a practical series hybrid in a D or E-segment unibody vehicle. I wonder if the Magna setup is the secret sauce in the VAG Scout.
Link: Hybrid Powertrain Products