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EVs are dead

DoctorD

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It's over. The foreseeable future is ICE or hybrids. The EV experiment has failed. People don't want them!
 

TripleT

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Better call Gavin and give him the news because the fine for Ice and start in 1 model years and outright ban in Carb states in 10
 

patfromigh

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People don't want them!
You obviously haven't been to The Villages in Florida. What people don't want is unelected bureaucrats with totalitarian impulses pushing battery electric power trains as the only acceptable solution. To make things even worse, they push batteries with certain chemistries from our global adversaries as an essential ingredient. Harsh regulatory timelines are then implemented to hinder alternatives.

The only workable future is a diversity of technology and fuels. America has to be energy independent and have wise wise resource management. As I have pointed out in other threads and in various forums, in my adult lifetime diesel fuel has gone from 4 gallons for a dollar to 4 dollars per gallon. Much of our commercial and fleet transportation became tied to cheap diesel and that has disappeared decades ago. Manufacturers and customers are scrambling to find alternatives.

I received an email from Ram Commercial today that the ProMaster EV is now available. The first year of production is sold out because a few large fleet buyers placed orders. Delivery vehicles with fixed routes are good candidates for battery electric power-trains. They travel short distances and return to a central location where they can be easily be charged over night. Large over the road trucks are not an efficient use for battery electric power trains, but there are alternative fuel choices.

I deal with battery electric vehicles on a daily basis. I should be wearing hip-waders for all the BS I have to work with. I must deal with charging times, range killing temperatures and dead cars. It is a house of cards sitting on a wobbly table of lies. Despite this, there are still electric cars which interest me. I almost bought an off-lease Fiat 500e compliance car four years ago, but changed my mind when our region of the state started limiting medical services. I need something with more range to go to a health care network in another county. The newest Fiat 500e has that range. Even in this Tesla killing weather we are presently having, the small EV with a smaller battery can be practically charged from a standard outlet. We have plugs in the apartment parking lot for winter plugins. Battery power makes a great deal of sense for small city cars. I mentioned The Villages earlier. There and many similar communities many residents have neighborhood electric vehicles.

In affluent countries with high EV acceptance rates their transportation petroleum use has only gone down a little. This compares to a country like the US, with a relatively low percentage of EV sales, where our transportation petroleum use is declining at a greater rate. This is because electric bikes and scooters are used for short trips in addition to electric city cars. We have more multi-vehicle households and if an electric vehicle is purchased, it tends to be a smaller commuter car.

EV sales are flat because all the early adopters bought one. Another contributing factor is GM has stopped making the Chevy Bolt. After all the teething pains GM has had with the car, they finally got it straightened out. People were buying them in increasing numbers and the car was killed.

The federal government has a tight control on public transportation. Because of this, bureaucrats can easily dictate battery-electric busses. This is turning into debacle for many systems because these new busses and ultra-fast charging stations are not reliable. Electric busses running from overhead wires have been in use for over a century, operating safely and reliably in cities around the globe. Despite this battery-electric busses are still forced onto transit systems using taxpayer money.
 

patfromigh

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I'm going to bring this thread up again because I deal with battery electric vehicles on a daily basis when charging them up and making them available for our customers to rent. Even here in Frostbite Falls, MN, during winter, there are individuals who will snap up an EV as their rental choice. Are Camrys that dull?

These forums tend to be echo chambers because most of the people who post here have more than a passing knowledge of motor vehicles. Most consumers and the driving public don't have any idea what's under the hood. One of the basic concepts of human psychology is Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Basic needs like food, shelter and safety must be met before higher needs can be fulfilled. What does this have to do with the subject of this thread? The statement of "People don't want them" is based on a false premise that the average person has a good understanding of motive power. They don't.

The film Who Killed the Electric Car? is a very successful propaganda piece. Many were convinced that battery electric power is simple, reliable and inexpensive. In very limited use, with the restricted environment of GM's program, the EV1 was all that. If one asks consumers what they want, it will be simple reliable and inexpensive, not technical jargon. Safety will play into that as well. Safety also means a warm cabin in the winter and a secure environment when refueling. I see EVs running around here in the dead of winter. We might see "dead robots" on the news, or the pictures of homeless encampments along the street side charging stations in LA and think why would anyone want this. Some people have figured out how to preheat the cabin of their EV with a standard outlet as well as charging overnight.

The same thing holds true for ICE powered vehicles. Most people don't care what's under the hood. Coolness is not one of our basic needs. Hemis are cool, but inline sixes aren't. (Jeep fans may disagree about the latter.) The Hemi V8 is no longer affordable. There are a host of engineering challenges going into the future due to government regulations. Dodge muscle cars have also become thug bait. Remember safety is a basic need. Dodge as a brand is in trouble because they overplayed their hand.
 

Yousiside

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Internal combustion engines (ICE) aren't going away overnight, and hybrids offer a good middle ground for some drivers. But to say EVs have failed entirely seems a bit dramatic.
 

TripleT

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EPA is about to announce a major crack down on ICE in the coming days. Just sayin
 

James.A

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EPA is about to announce a major crack down on ICE in the coming days. Just sayin
Infrastructure is not up to snuff and policies can and according to recent reports will be changed.
 

Redbone

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Few car companies are addressing the elephant in the room; B.E.V's weigh up to 40% more than a comparable I.C.E. and a battery large enough to equal MPG are also expensive. The current best solution would be a series hybrid whereby a small combustion engine (not a I4 or V6) is solely used to charge the electric battery. This would allow for fill to charge option, offer mileage extension, alleviate charge anxiety, reduce battery weight and costs by 2/3rds. The current parallel hybrid should have never become the standard as it is by far less efficient, in essence only doubling propulsion systems with minimal efficiency gains while adding weight and complexity. Jay Leno's 1916 Owen Magnetic had is right more than 100 years ago.
 

patfromigh

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The parallel hybrid systems in the Toyota Prius, Ford Escape and Chrysler Pacifica all trace their origins to the TRW hybrid drivetrain research, which started in the 1950s. The engineers involved in the project were most likely in college when knowledge of series hybrids was prominent. Some transit busses were using series-hybrid power at the time. I'm sure the researchers investigated all avenues of fuel efficiency, yet the parallel hybrid won. The weight penalty in any of the hybrid models mentioned earlier is not that great. In some cases an e-axle substitutes the weight of a mechanical AWD system. The smoothness of the hybrid drivetrain also allows for other efficiency gains such as the ICE running on Atkinson cycle.

The series-hybrid micro turbine concept of recent history was a bust. It is too early to tell if Mazda's rotary range-extended EV will be successful. That system is currently handicapped by management's marketing decisions. I think they should offer it in their rumored small pickup truck.

It is no coincidence that Micky Bly was involved with both the GM Voltec program (Chevy Volt) and now with the Ramcharger.
 

TripleT

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The 4xE systems are quite clear both of them replacing parasitic components with motor in the case of the rear wheel drive based, the torque converter and Fwd the rear grearing clutches and drive train. So the only additional component is really the battery. So no the old claim of two drivetrains is not the case. What would be good would be to also remove the Lead Acid system. Not sure why this hasn't been abandoned yet as it seems always to be a issue with PHEV and BEV vehicles.
 

redriderbob

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EVs have their niche, like for performance, but are unrealistic in normal day-to-day use for most Americans. They cost higher, require rare earth metals that damage the earth to mine them. PHEVs are the way to go: unlimited range, emissions-free for short distances, and cheaper.
 

patfromigh

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I'm thinking the niches which EVs will fill, in addition to performance, are city cars and delivery vans. The battery electric school busses have been a disaster, while different municipal vehicles could be another promising market segment. I notice how the pickup trucks are used at the airport where I work. Battery electric power would be a logical choice for such use in a semi-closed environment. Ram has been successful with the ProMaster EV and they will also be offering the REV on the Tradesmen trim.
 

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