The problem of electric cars for the middle class. In conversation with Carlos Tavares

[Deckard Cain]

Interview of a portuguese website with Carlos Tavares

He has some very interesting views about the chinese market, he talks about solid state batteries and that they must be compatible with the battery factories that are being built in the next few years.

 

[cygnus]

Nothing he has said is interesting or novel from anyone that's been paying attention in the automotive industry.

"He has some very interesting views about the chinese market"

How is this different than ICE? It's not. This is BYD's HQ in Europe - About BYD Europe

It's a joke. The Chinese are not interested in building out a dealer network/investing in localization/translation, etc. They get 80% of it of building an EV right, and skimp out on the last 20% because that last 20% takes the most amount of time/effort/investment. It's a cultural thing.

"solid state batteries and that they must be compatible with the battery factories that are being built in the next few years."

Solid state batteries == cold fusion. Even if they do figure it out, they won't be compatible with the upcoming factories.

How can the US/European OEMs compete and prevent Chinese OEMs from taking over US and EU marketshare? Building a better vehicle and doing more with less + In-sourcing. But that would take leadership figure at each company that frankly doesn't exist outside of Musk and Tesla. But Musk and Tesla also have their own fatal flaws.

 

[Deckard Cain]

They're not cold fusion. You already have buses driving with solid state batteries and production prototypes are on the hands of auto manufacturers.

 

[TripleT]

Look, last week Global Leadership showed it hand, the big EV push is a backdoor push for a ban on private mass market transport. They a more than aware of lack of infrastructure, lack battery capacity, lack electric capacity....... Also, one cannot switch instantly off liquid fuels, when one ESG score falls.

 

[Deckard Cain]

How's that relevant to this interview?
If you want to talk about that could you please open a post with a link about that?
I can't find much info about what was said there and how it pertains to Stellantis.

 

[cygnus]

They're not cold fusion. You already have buses driving with solid state batteries and production prototypes are on the hands of auto manufacturers.

Those aren't actually solid state, it's a bit of novel packaging. It's like Samsung saying they're doing 3nm chips when the pitch gate is as high as TSMC's 5nm.

If there was a real material science / chemistry breakthrough with solid state batteries, it would be the world's lead scientific discovery journal - Nature.

 

[Deckard Cain]

No it wouldn't, because if you publish all the detailed information on a scientific article you cannot patent it. There's plenty of research published about the technology and addressing the technical limitations.
Blue Solution's batteries ARE solid state batteries but they have limitations. What everyone wants is SSBs that run at normal temperatures (around 25ºC) and theirs don't.
Blue Solution's tech is based on a Lithium Metal Polymer. It works at high temperatures, which is a limitation for personal vehicles.
Quantumscape's solution isn't like this and they've released a white paper detailing their batteries performance. They apparently work at ambient temperatures, which is revolutionary.

And no, this technology isn't the same as cold fusion. You might say it's the same as fusion, but they're much closer to market while fusion energy is still decades away.

 

[TripleT]

How's that relevant to this interview?
If you want to talk about that could you please open a post with a link about that?
I can't find much info about what was said there and how it pertains to Stellantis.

it relevant to post on cold fusion and silicon batteries.

 

[Deckard Cain]

This is a post about Carlos Tavares interview and what he has to say.
Also, there's no problem with a better balance between private and public transportation.
That might be hard to understand for someone from a country with 800 cars per 1000 inhabitants and without decent public transportation networks, but it works well for most of the rest of the world where the primary focus isn't on fattening the bottom line of corporations.

 

[patfromigh]

Americans live under the myth a free market creates leap frog development. (slightly off topic)

 

[Deckard Cain]

A free, properly regulated market with non-captured regulators that prevent concentration does. That went out the window 20 to 30 years ago in the US.

 

[Deckard Cain]

Stellantis is one of the global manufacturers that bets the least on the world's largest car market, China. Why is that?

CT: We don't need to manufacture vehicles in China because we are very profitable with the current import system. The case of Jeep (which we stopped manufacturing locally last year) shows this well.

We will continue to sell in China, but we are very careful about geopolitical volatility in some regions of the globe. Also, we are a Western World company: big in the U.S.; very big in Europe; No. 1 in Latin America; and growing exponentially in Africa and the Middle East.

In the hypothetical case of increased tensions between the US and China, being in the Chinese market with a strong presence in industrial plants would represent an increased risk. I don't want to subject my company to that kind of problem. It is true that we have a lower growth potential, but a higher profit potential.

This answer was very interesting for me. It's the complete opposite of the german manufacturers and that's coming back to bite them.

 

[TripleT]

This is a post about Carlos Tavares interview and what he has to say.
Also, there's no problem with a better balance between private and public transportation.
That might be hard to understand for someone from a country with 800 cars per 1000 inhabitants and without decent public transportation networks, but it works well for most of the rest of the world where the primary focus isn't on fattening the bottom line of corporations.

Well, have you been here? Actually, been here, seen the distances? I have traveled the world, EU and USA are very different markets.

 

[TripleT]

Americans live under the myth a free market creates leap frog development. (slightly off topic)

Beside WAR... it is.

 

[cygnus]

No it wouldn't, because if you publish all the detailed information on a scientific article you cannot patent it. There's plenty of research published about the technology and addressing the technical limitations.
Blue Solution's batteries ARE solid state batteries but they have limitations. What everyone wants is SSBs that run at normal temperatures (around 25ºC) and theirs don't.
Blue Solution's tech is based on a Lithium Metal Polymer. It works at high temperatures, which is a limitation for personal vehicles.
Quantumscape's solution isn't like this and they've released a white paper detailing their batteries performance. They apparently work at ambient temperatures, which is revolutionary.

And no, this technology isn't the same as cold fusion. You might say it's the same as fusion, but they're much closer to market while fusion energy is still decades away.

Long story short - the supposed 'solid state' battery that Daimler or this supplier has unveiled isn't novel or that great of an improvement over a similar sized pack using conventional lithium NMC packs.

You can still publish interesting/novel discoveries in journals while retaining a patent. A patent is a method of legal enforcement in the absence of licensing that is above and beyond the scientific truth - it is meant for the realm of humans instead of pure nature. Disclosing a discovery via journal may offer a path to an alternative implementation via reverse engineering, but thats a stretch.

 

[cygnus]

This answer was very interesting for me. It's the complete opposite of the german manufacturers and that's coming back to bite them.

It's a convenient handwaving explanation for their total and utter failure to be able to produce vehicles in competitive segments, at competitive prices. That was supposedly what PSA was bringing to the table in that they would apply those principals to offering localized Chinese models based on PSA platforms, and its been an utter failure.

Once again Tavares is making excuses for the European portion of STLA failing.

 

[ScramFan]

This is a post about Carlos Tavares interview and what he has to say.
Also, there's no problem with a better balance between private and public transportation.
That might be hard to understand for someone from a country with 800 cars per 1000 inhabitants and without decent public transportation networks, but it works well for most of the rest of the world where the primary focus isn't on fattening the bottom line of corporations.

What about fattening the bottom line of those in Europe who build the public transportation system? Do we not count those as well? Same crap gets served all over the world, just different seasoning.

 

[ChargerFan1]

I am just wondering why they've had solid states working for decades in pace makers but can't make a larger version? I am sure its super scientific...but, whatever.

 

[patfromigh]

My hearing aids use zinc-air solid state batteries.

 

[Deckard Cain]

Well, have you been here? Actually, been here, seen the distances? I have traveled the world, EU and USA are very different markets.

View attachment 7777

We are talking about different things. When I talk about public transportation it's about systems in metropolitan areas. Some cities in the US do have very good public transportation systems as the metro/subway systems of Boston, New York, the Muni system in San Francisco, etc. Systems that replace daily commuting for many people.
Other things that can be done is to create good bus systems, with dedicated lanes in the roads or their own separate roads (metrobus systems).

Train lines that cross the entirety of the US obviously are not competitive in terms of speed with air travel to justify high speed rail networks from LA to NY lets say.
However, in-state high speed rail should be done in several states or across neighboring state borders with the populational density that justifies it. As you show in your overlay, the area with the highest populational density in the US (the east coast) is roughly the size of Europe. Some of those states could make good train networks. Also, I believe that Cali is making a high speed rail from SF to LA?
Texas to me seems like a state that could make some awesome high speed rail network as well. Spain has what is probably the best high-speed rail network in Europe.

There's some very cool trains in the US and Canada, would be cool to see that being expanded. They're very impressive machines and train travel can be very pleasant and a vacation in itself along scenic routes.