The future of North American ICE Powertrain for Jeep, Dodge, and Ram - Inline 6 + PHEV & MHEV?

[cygnus]

As I referenced in an earlier thread (Next L Car Hybrid Electrification clue - 2024 Corvette E-Ray is _not_ a PHEV) I have reason to believe that the Inline-6 engine can be paired with a mild-hybrid (MHEV) setup to achieve high-performance. STLA also has experience within PHEVs, and has implemented this setup on other vehicles in the portfolio.

As a refresher, there are two hybrid setups used in industry -

1) Mild Hybrid (MHEV) - which has been around since the debut of the Prius. A battery offsets the largest strain on the ICE powertrain (initial movement from a dead stop) and captures energy during breaking. Mild-Hybrids integrate seamlessly with the internal combustion engine. This setup is today on the Ram 1500 with eTorque, so STLA is familiar with this implementation.
2) Plug-in Hybrid (PHEV) - as the name implies, this implementation typically accompanies a 10-20 KWh battery. There are some packaging challenges with this setup - it can't be easily integrated with a pickup, for example. But STLA has managed to pair a battery with the 2.0L engine offered on the 2022+ Grand Cherokee, Wrangler, and also has a new implementation with the Dodge Hornet.

The question then becomes - will we see implementations of PHEVs or MHEVs on future Dodge, Jeep, and Ram vehicles?

My guess is that the answer this question is yes - we will see both.

PHEVs will be reserved for top level trims - the battery is the most expensive part of the setup, and PHEVs have much larger batteries than MHEVs. There will also be a 'push boost' option where it uses the battery for quicker acceleration. You saw this already with the Dodge Hornet. My guess is that you'll see MHEVs on all other trim levels (cheaper to implement).

So when will we see these PHEV and MHEV implementations?

You'll see it first on the Charger/Challenger. I'm really scratching my head as to whether the Charger/Challenger will have the PHEV paired with the Inline 6. If Chevy can do a high performance MHEV, I wouldn't be surprised if Dodge chases them with something similar (Inline 6 MHEV). To be frank, I don't know if STLA is ready to make PHEVs in volume until 2026 or later.

It's possible that the Ram refresh could have an updated eTorque implementation for their 2024 MY. It's getting the plain jane I6 for the 2023 MY (which has zero advantage over the Hemi, and no one will buy it).

TBD on whether the Wranger/Gladiator refresh will have it. Not sure if the electrical setup for either will support it with an entire redesign of the electrical subsystem. But the refresh has to carry Wrangler/Gladiator until the next full redesign (2027), so it may warrant the investment.

Grand Cherokee Refresh in 2026/2027 would be the earliest you would see it on WL74/W75.

 

[bill burke]

It is my profound belief that the “all electric” declared future for most brands now advocating that policy is doomed to failure. There is no realistic articulation of support capability, battery supply or disposal capacity or public support for this electric modalities to go forward with all electric. Alfa Romeo, Maserati and many other brands have been overwhelmed by the green hysteria woke thinking and committed to a false logic and a failed future if they continue to drink the Kool Aid and commit anymore finances to this false reality.
Dodge would do well to commit to an internal combustion engine future with perhaps an electric option or join those brands on a fools mission to self destruction. I’d dump the Banshee nonsense as soon as possible and follow Mustang to a future of turbo six and updated Hemi V-8s to success in the American marketplace before it is too late. No one with common sense or honest evaluation would choose otherwise.

 

[patfromigh]

Mild Hybrid - 48 volt or 12 volt systems such as the BSG eTorque system used in some Ram pickups and Jeep models. Some GM products used a 12V setup.
Full Hybrid - High voltage systems such as the Toyota Prius, various Ford products and the Allison based setup used in full size GM pickups, SUVs, and the Dodge Durango / Chrysler Aspen twins. Such systems are also called legacy hybrids.
Range Extended Electric Vehicle - Typically an IC engine is used as onboard power for charging the batteries in an EV. The most notable effort was the Chevy Volt. The BMW i3 had range extender as an option but it was dropped. A number of the pre-FCA Chrysler company ENVI concepts were RE-EV. Some Stellantis LCVs use a hydrogen fuel cell as a range extender. We are still waiting for the Mazda rotary range extender.
Plugin Hybrid - A high voltage legacy hybrid system with enough batteries to allow some practical battery only operation. Of course such setups allow the ability to charge the batteries while plugged in. Range extended EVs may also be referred to as PHEVs. The Jeep 4Xe system used in Wranglers and Grand Cherokee have a BSG to allow a seamless transition from battery to ICE power or back again.

The Wrangler has both 48 and high voltage capability already. The Gladiator is built on a separate line and doesn't. The next generation ZF eight speed will offer options for both voltage levels on either mild hybrid or plugin hybrid systems. There will be an electric motor in the transmission in addition to the BSG for whatever Stellantis hybrids using the next ZF transmissions. The BSG is according to past statements from people in Auburn Hills and the electric motor in the transmission is according to ZF.

Note to Bill, the EV push isn't driven by public support, it is the result of public apathy. If you would note on the origins of the term "drinking the Kool Aid", not everyone in the incident which inspired the term had drank it. A number of the victims had it injected into them. It would be some trick to get a whole society full of people to have an unknown substance injected into their arms. Any mass media apparatus which could do that can easily convince a society to adopt this crazy BEV panacea.

(I'm not against battery electric vehicles. I believe city cars and delivery vans will be money makers, because they make practical sense for many situations. There isn't a one size fits all solution, however.)

 

[ChargerFan1]

It is my profound belief that the “all electric” declared future for most brands now advocating that policy is doomed to failure. There is no realistic articulation of support capability, battery supply or disposal capacity or public support for this electric modalities to go forward with all electric. Alfa Romeo, Maserati and many other brands have been overwhelmed by the green hysteria woke thinking and committed to a false logic and a failed future if they continue to drink the Kool Aid and commit anymore finances to this false reality.
Dodge would do well to commit to an internal combustion engine future with perhaps an electric option or join those brands on a fools mission to self destruction. I’d dump the Banshee nonsense as soon as possible and follow Mustang to a future of turbo six and updated Hemi V-8s to success in the American marketplace before it is too late. No one with common sense or honest evaluation would choose otherwise.

Banshee is ahead of its time and they only showed it this early because it "was going to take some soak time". Make no mistake, it'll make perfect sense in 2-3 years among the other 8 second EV's. Unfortunately thats just one area where an EV makes sense, a weekend warrior performance car or a runabout around town car (Fiat 500). They don't make sense as long haul commuters or trucks that actually get used as trucks.

 

[James.A]

Banshee is ahead of its time and they only showed it this early because it "was going to take some soak time". Make no mistake, it'll make perfect sense in 2-3 years among the other 8 second EV's. Unfortunately thats just one area where an EV makes sense, a weekend warrior performance car or a runabout around town car (Fiat 500). They don't make sense as long haul commuters or trucks that actually get used as trucks.

What about the Banshee is ahead of its time?

 

[patfromigh]

What about the Banshee is ahead of its time?

The battery production facilities haven't been built yet. The tooling for the EV drive train probably doesn't exist yet. Look, Ford is way ahead of Stellantis on this stuff. FoMoCo actually has been able to create physical hard copies of vaporware, the Lightning EV pickup. They do have a Mustang EV, but it's ugly.

Back to Dodge, since the new EV is going to be a money pit, why rush things?

 

[AlexB]

The battery production facilities haven't been built yet. The tooling for the EV drive train probably doesn't exist yet. Look, Ford is way ahead of Stellantis on this stuff. FoMoCo actually has been able to create physical hard copies of vaporware, the Lightning EV pickup. They do have a Mustang EV, but it's ugly.

Back to Dodge, since the new EV is going to be a money pit, why rush things?

Because of the same capacity issues, Ford isn’t much ahead at all. That being stated Mach E has sold pretty good.
Second there are Federal standards get rolled out in the 2025-2028. The way the Company been satisfying U.S. Federal standards is a treasure chest of credits purchase from Tesla during 2016-2021.

 

[bill burke]

As is my style, I tend to exaggerate on a topic for the sake of generating conversation and often to inject my silly sense of humor. My apologies.
Sure I know the general public, for a variety of reasons, is going along with this electric fantasy with a degree of inevitability or indifference or out of ignorance.
But the auto executives have succumbed to implied or applied pressure or both likely, from a small but well funded and extremist group of pseudo intellectuals who worship at tha altar of climate change and the god of greed and profit.These corrupted and gutless wonders indeed deserve our anger since they know better but lack backbone and virtue. Yes I know the origins of the Kool Aid usage, it does however truly apply to these myopic executives who willingly are leading the industry to slaughter. Latest EV sales figures show a decline and panic must be rampant in Board rooms all over the globe. As I, not totally in jest have stated loudly, “ Long live carbon emissions” as please note, no jest intended here, scientist have studied and confirmed, carbon is essential and good for the planet. Call it “Hemi Environmentalism” if you please.

 

[AlexB]

As is my style, I tend to exaggerate on a topic for the sake of generating conversation and often to inject my silly sense of humor. My apologies.
Sure I know the general public, for a variety of reasons, is going along with this electric fantasy with a degree of inevitability or indifference or out of ignorance.
But the auto executives have succumbed to implied or applied pressure or both likely, from a small but well funded and extremist group of pseudo intellectuals who worship at tha altar of climate change and the god of greed and profit.These corrupted and gutless wonders indeed deserve our anger since they know better but lack backbone and virtue. Yes I know the origins of the Kool Aid usage, it does however truly apply to these myopic executives who willingly are leading the industry to slaughter. Latest EV sales figures show a decline and panic must be rampant in Board rooms all over the globe. As I, not totally in jest have stated loudly, “ Long live carbon emissions” as please note, no jest intended here, scientist have studied and confirmed, carbon is essential and good for the planet. Call it “Hemi Environmentalism” if you please.

When it comes to Stellantis , the Largest Shareholder, Top Executive, and the leader of the Board is one and the same:John Elkann.
It’s easy to talk about “backbone” when you are not the largest shareholder.