Mopar Insiders Forum

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • We have been battling an on and off issue with registration verification emails not being sent out with certain users. We have finally got the issue resolved so if you have tried registering for the site but have not received a verification email, just request another verification email when you log in and you should now receive it. If you still don't receive the verification email, send us an email at [email protected] and we will get it resolved for you. Thanks!

Stellantis Vans and LCVs

patfromigh

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
466
Reaction score
527
Location
Frostbite Falls, MN
That I know off there isn't a thread on the Ram ProMaster or the ProMaster City. A smaller ProMaster Rapid is marketed in Latin America and some Caribbean countries, plus there is also a Fiat equivalent. The PSA side of Stellantis offers different small vans than the FCA side. Opel and Vauxhall had marketed their versions of the Fiat Doblo/Ram PMC, but those were replaced by versions of the small PSA vans. The full size ProMaster/Ducato share many parts with the Peugeot and Citroen full size vans, but each nameplate has a different drivetrain. (The French vans might share some engines.) PSA offers battery electric versions in each of their van series, but Fiat only offers a battery electric option for the Ducato. From what I can tell the French and Italian vans have different electric drive-trains from each other despite sharing the same production line. The Saltillo built ProMaster currently only offers the Pentastar V6.

A change in US government policy, coming from the White House, was announced this week. The new policy would mandate electric vehicles for federal vehicle fleet purchases. Other changes are in the Buy America requirements for government vehicle purchases. I don't know if Mexican or Canadian built vehicles will be given any allowances. I also don't know what is considered "electric" under the new requirements. Does it strictly mean battery electric of does it allow for other plugin vehicles?

Both ProMaster Vans are in trouble. The Ford Transit Connect is imported, as is the Ram PMC. The fleet versions of the Ford TC offer alternative fuel options with American built drive-trains, but that might not be enough. The full size Ford Transit meets buy American requirements and has an EV option.

This may be the first big test the newly formed Stellantis, because it's not just delivery vans for the USPS, but also all the pickups and law enforcement vehicles bought by the feds.
 

pumadog

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
345
Reaction score
260
There's also mid size vans. Fiat currently sources their Talento from Renault, while the prevous model Scudo was sourced from PSA (Sevel Nord). They'll probably switch back. Opel's big van Movano is still based on the Renault Master but should switch to the Stellantis product Ducato (Sevel Sud) as well.
 

AlexB

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2018
Messages
1,565
Reaction score
1,047
That I know off there isn't a thread on the Ram ProMaster or the ProMaster City. A smaller ProMaster Rapid is marketed in Latin America and some Caribbean countries, plus there is also a Fiat equivalent. The PSA side of Stellantis offers different small vans than the FCA side. Opel and Vauxhall had marketed their versions of the Fiat Doblo/Ram PMC, but those were replaced by versions of the small PSA vans. The full size ProMaster/Ducato share many parts with the Peugeot and Citroen full size vans, but each nameplate has a different drivetrain. (The French vans might share some engines.) PSA offers battery electric versions in each of their van series, but Fiat only offers a battery electric option for the Ducato. From what I can tell the French and Italian vans have different electric drive-trains from each other despite sharing the same production line. The Saltillo built ProMaster currently only offers the Pentastar V6.

A change in US government policy, coming from the White House, was announced this week. The new policy would mandate electric vehicles for federal vehicle fleet purchases. Other changes are in the Buy America requirements for government vehicle purchases. I don't know if Mexican or Canadian built vehicles will be given any allowances. I also don't know what is considered "electric" under the new requirements. Does it strictly mean battery electric of does it allow for other plugin vehicles?

Both ProMaster Vans are in trouble. The Ford Transit Connect is imported, as is the Ram PMC. The fleet versions of the Ford TC offer alternative fuel options with American built drive-trains, but that might not be enough. The full size Ford Transit meets buy American requirements and has an EV option.

This may be the first big test the newly formed Stellantis, because it's not just delivery vans for the USPS, but also all the pickups and law enforcement vehicles bought by the feds.
Transit Connect will discontinued, for international markets its replacement will come from Volkswagen.
The ''Buy American'' EO is more grandstanding really not nothing new, always provides an Canada/Mexico/NATO clause if U.S. sources are unable to reach needed volumes.
 

AlexB

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2018
Messages
1,565
Reaction score
1,047
Ram is working on a ProMaster BEV for Amazon, it will come to market next year
So depending on the whole Foxconn/'fruit'' talks......... Stellantis would be doing business with all three of the biggest tech companies on the plant
 

patfromigh

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
466
Reaction score
527
Location
Frostbite Falls, MN
The frustrating thing about the EO details is that there aren't many specifics given, and the prominent news outlets are often vague. I don't say that to be combative, but for example the WSJ was confused with electric and electrified in some recent articles. That is only one example.

I wonder if Stellantis and Toyota will want to cooperate on vans for North America. I forget what Toyota named their van, but comes from Sevel Nord. All the mid-sized battery electric vans from Sevel Nord use the same drivetrains. Toyota could bring some good battery tech to the table through its suppliers if there was a similar agreement here. Of course where would the vans be built? Saltillo is maxed out with the ProMaster.
 

patfromigh

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
466
Reaction score
527
Location
Frostbite Falls, MN
The E-Ducato uses an outsourced drivetrain like the California compliance Fiat 500e had done. The Toluca assembled Fiat 500e had a Bosch supplied drivetrain. The Fiat Professional E-Ducato uses a drivetrain supplied by SolarEdge E-mobility, SpA. SolarEdge has grown into a conglomerate of green energy technology by acquiring other firms. The company FCA originally worked with was S.M.R.E. SpA in Italy. That company was acquired last year during the SolarEdge buying spree. From what I can tell the purchase contracts for this supplier were completed after the merger. It is a Stellantis baby.

I don't know who the suppliers for batteries and drivetrain parts for the PSA battery electric LCVs are. I would guess that sooner or later Stellantis will standardize for each vehicle class. These are commercial vehicles not passenger vehicles for the consumer market. It is likely there will be a different strategy for the consumer market EVs. The new generation Fiat 500 BEV offers a better idea of what will happen in respect to how much is done in-house versus outsourced engineering.

FedEx has announced they will be implementing a global zero emissions delivery truck fleet over the next few decades. Stellantis will be in a good position to continue fleet sales.
 

patfromigh

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
466
Reaction score
527
Location
Frostbite Falls, MN
I have learned more about the electric PSA vans and the technology used in them. The EV powertrain comes from a company based in the UK, BEDEO. From a BEDEO news release, "BEDEO is pleased to announce that we have entered into a partnership with PSA (the Peugeot Citroen Group) to supply and install BEDEO electric drivetrain solutions to a selection of their light commercial vehicle models."

Source: https://bedeo.co.uk/wp-content/uplo...ERS-WITH-PSA-TO-BUILD-LARGE-ELECTRIC-VANS.pdf

While the Fiat e-Ducato powertrain comes from an outside supplier, it is installed on the line. The Fiat van is not a conversion. The Peugeot and Citroen large vans are pulled from the line and finished by an outside supplier. The same thing was done with the Ram ProMaster vans converted to BEVs by Zenith motors, but the Ram people have enough integrity not to claim that van as their own.

When Sergio told the press not to buy the Fiat 500e because FCA lost money on everyone they sold, one of the cost inefficiencies was the assembly process. Cars were pulled from the line and had the electric powertrain and batteries installed on a semi-custom basis, but at least this was done in house at Toluca. It will be interesting to see what Mr. Tavares (AKA, Le Cost Cutter) does with consolidating commercial vehicle electrification strategies.

I have to add this postscript. BD Auto, who are apparently performing the PSA EV van conversions in Turkey, has also converted Fiat Ducatos. This is a separate venture from the eDucato and was not part of FCA.
 
Last edited:

patfromigh

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
466
Reaction score
527
Location
Frostbite Falls, MN
The Fiat Scudo returns! o_O

Stellantis to Produce Fiat Scudo Van in Russia​


MOSCOW (Reuters) - Stellantis will produce Fiat Scudo light commercial vehicles in Russia and export them to other markets, the global carmaker said.
Stellantis owns a 70% stake in a car plant in the Russian city of Kaluga where it plans to produce the vehicle. Mitsubishi owns the remaining 30% stake.
Fiat Scudo production in Russia will start by the end of 2022, Stellantis said in a statement this week.
The firm said it was turning the Kaluga plant into an export hub that would supply engines and cars to Europe, Latin America and North Africa.
Stellantis was formed this year through a $52 billion merger between Fiat Chrysler and France's PSA Group.I
(Reporting by Gleb Stolyarov; writing by Olzhas Auyezov; editing by Jason Neely)
Copyright 2021 Thomson Reuters.

Source: https://money.usnews.com/investing/...tellantis-to-produce-fiat-scudo-van-in-russia
 

pumadog

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
345
Reaction score
260
Hmm, the old SEVEL version as a low-budget vehicle or a new Peugeot Expert brother?
 

patfromigh

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
466
Reaction score
527
Location
Frostbite Falls, MN
Hmm, the old SEVEL version as a low-budget vehicle or a new Peugeot Expert brother?
It won't be the old version, it seems PSA has been building their Expert and Jumpy vans in the Kaluga, Russia factory for a little while now. This production plant was originally intended for a joint venture between Fiat and Sollers to produce Ducato vans in Russia a number of years ago. Sollers wasn't being honest on the deal so Fiat walked away. Sollers had financial problems and had to sell the operation. PSA ended up buying into the facility before there was even any Stellantis merger considerations. Turning the facility into an export hub was a decision made during the Stellantis formation, however. PSA also produces a 1.6 liter diesel there which is used in their vans, but I don't know anything else about that engine. Ironically, even though the facility was originally intended to produce the Ducato, none of the large Stellantis vans are produced there today.

Semi related information: Stellantis Facilities
 
Last edited:

pumadog

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
345
Reaction score
260
Semi related information: Stellantis Facilities
Wow, that's a useful map! :D

stellantis-factories-1.jpg
 

patfromigh

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
466
Reaction score
527
Location
Frostbite Falls, MN
I wonder what the future of the Ram ProMaster City here in America will be. The Tipo going to a 48V mild hybrid powertrain shows the Fiat side of the Stellantis house will be building electrified vehicles there.

Another cloud on the horizon for the Ram PMC is the US government is cracking down on these small vans which skirt the chicken tax. Ford and FCA have been importing cargo vans with temporary rear seats and calling them station wagons. Ford is in more trouble than Ram is because they have been careless in how they handle the import operation.
 

KrisW

Active member
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
136
Reaction score
221
While the Fiat e-Ducato powertrain comes from an outside supplier, it is installed on the line. The Fiat van is not a conversion. The Peugeot and Citroen large vans are pulled from the line and finished by an outside supplier. The same thing was done with the Ram ProMaster vans converted to BEVs by Zenith motors, but the Ram people have enough integrity not to claim that van as their own.
My understanding of e-Ducato was that SMRE was contracted as both an engineering resource to develop the system and as a supplier of the resulting, with FCA retaining some rights to those designs as a result, rather than a straight off-the-shelf procurement. If there was assignment of IP, it might explain PSA’s earlier reluctance to join in: after all it had vans made on the same production lines, and if it was just a matter of paying SMRE it would make sense to follow FCA‘s lead. There’s no way that the way PSA was doing its vans was cheaper than the way FCA did e-Ducato.

From now on, the only sane way is the way that Ducato is made, and there should no longer be any legal difficulties with expanding the previous arrangements to cover former-PSA brands too in the short term. Longer term, the combined volumes for the SEVEL Sud vans would justify a fully in-house solution (in as much as “in-house” means anything in the modern car industry)

I was going to mention the e-Dobló, but you found it before me. That appears to have been a contract arranged by Tofaş (FCA’s joint-venture partner in the Bursa factory) with no FCA involvment.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top