PSA EMP2 v4 (cVMP) platform

[Bili]

In calendar 2023 PSA will unveil first car on cVMP platform, formally known as EMP2 v4. The new generation of Peugeot 3008 SUV model.

IMO yet again PSA marketing department had pulled a brilliant move calling the platform new although it's not so much.

Platform will be suitable for BEV, PHEV and MHEV. Of course PSA marketing is only raving about BEV.

Platform is for C(compact) and D(midsize) segment cars.

 

[Bili]

Just to add more material to this story.

Technologically PSA is 3 years behind FCA. Why? New 500 is already capably of housing all of this with batteries in the floor for BEV version:


And to add even more. FCA with Giorgio Global and BMW with CLAR II will have RWD platform capable for this in calendar 2021. One subversion for PHEV/BEV and the other for ICE/MHEV. The goal is to maximize battery capacity for BEV and PHEV versions and to have full capacity fuel tank for PHEV and to have no compromises for cargo volume.

 

[cygnus]

Interesting.

Where will the consolidation of platforms between PSA and FCA take place?

 

[TripleT]

What is a platform... just sayin

 

[Bili]

Where will the consolidation of platforms between PSA and FCA take place?

I can not comment it. All I know is that Pug doesn't have platforms suitable for mechanical AWD. I.e. not for Jeep brand, at least not in US.

What I can see that although new 500 for now has only BEV version it can be seen from the pictures that platform is suitable for internal combustion engine. Let's say that this approach with batteries in the floor is the highest evolutionary for a platform which can also fit internal combustion engine.

FCA did it in 2021. I'm expecting it from Giorgio Global in 2021. PSA will be there in 2023 with EMP2 and according to plans in 2025 with smaller CMP platform. But why to use CMP anymore when "eMini" is already there? Currently CMP uses more archaic solution for BEV version, the one with batteries under the front and rear seats.

The rumor says that promised Alfa Romeo B-segment SUV scheduled for 2022 will end up on this "eMini" platform. Same with upcoming Jeep JJ/516 and Fiat B-segment SUV. Actually I was wondering about platform choice for triplets and I'm still not 100% sure. Is it eMini or the next generation Small Wide.

 

[Deckard Cain]

This seems to complement FCA's platforms really well IMO.
Giorgio Global is a RWD platform for D to E vehicles.
The 500e platform is for city cars to B cars. The CMP platform is a transitional platform: it's good for EVs and ICE vehicles. Ofcourse there will be liimitations for purely electric vehicles in that regard since fully dedicated EV platforms are superior.
This new eVMP slots in nicely in the hole left by FCA: the FWD C and D-segment. We all know that technically PSA does not have the versatility of FCA but in medium/long-term ICE engineering will become more and more irrelevant.

What will matter is EV engineering. This eVMP coupled with FCA's solutions guarantee a future for Stellantis in this regard.

 

[Bili]

@Deckard Cain

I thought that presentation from PSA is very clear. Hybrid is also mentioned for reworked platform. And it's still EMP2 with all of its constraints.

According to the same Conference Call PSA will be there with CMP in 2025.

What I don't like on PSA platforms is bad packaging. That's valid for both CMP and EMP2.

 

[Deckard Cain]

Well, I'm still expecting for a BEV based on the Small Wide. Since none is coming I assume that it's not possible from a technical perspective.
With eVMP it is possible. I doubt FCA will now waste resources to adapt the Small Wide platform for BEVs even if eVMP has constraints.

 

[pumadog]

In what year does Stellantis plan to build 2/3 of the cars on only 2 platforms? That should answer some questions.

 

[TripleT]

Never

 

[Bili]

In what year does Stellantis plan to build 2/3 of the cars on only 2 platforms? That should answer some questions.

Those are Tavares's words to which Manley didn't agree. You can relisten joint FCA-PSA Conference Call.
You can hear more. First step is in sharing components, not platforms. I always said that platform sharing is not so important. Components sharing is.

The thing is that something which works in Europe doesn't work in South or North America. Three important region for different products. Actually China is the most similar to Europe but that's the only region where Stellantis is far from good. And even there they are in love with long wheelbase versions of European cars.

For example applying PSA 2 platform B to D segment approach in America will end up in around $25k transaction price. How do I know it? It's very simple. Honda has such approach and their ATP in US is around $26k.
Just for comparison pre COVID19 crisis market had eclipsed $35k ATP and came close to $40k. AFAIK FCA has very high ATP in US.

 

[Deckard Cain]

FCA has very high ATP in the US because they got rid of compact and midsize cars.
With PSA they might consider getting back into these segments. IMO to do that they would have to bring something new such as EV exclusive models to this segment. They can't win against Honda or Toyota in any other way and the japanese are very skeptical of EVs.

 

[pumadog]

Those are Tavares's words to which Manley didn't agree.

It comes from FCA and PSA's joined merger presentation, page 18. Who cares about Manley from 2021 on?

 

[TripleT]

Honda and Toyota can't win against Honda and Toyota in the Compact and Midsized Car market. They are abandoning it also. The consumer expectation for cost doesn't match the cost to manufacture the product. Unless the vehicles are made in Eastern Europe or Asia outside Japan there is no money in that segment in North America and has not been in 5 years and there is no recovery on the horizon.

They are sharing platforms?? Platforms doesn't exist any more? They are going to rework all the carriers across Europe to fit 2 build point and manufacturing windows?? Well that sounds like wise investment just to achieve a reduction in the number of SKUs that have to be tracked....... They will share non-model specific componentry related to controls and drivetrain. That is where the saving exists not spending capital to commonize facilities so there are less suspension components and stamping to inventory.

 

[Bili]

It comes from FCA and PSA's joined merger presentation, page 18. Who cares about Manley from 2021 on?

AFAIK Manley will stay in the company as Stellantis COO or COO of one of the regions. Of course that Manley is one who will have a lot of responsibilities. And of course there will be a guy called John. They can't bypass John.


BTW. From PSA's H1 2020 Conference Call.

Tom Narayan
Will the eVMP platform strategy for 2025 include FCA?

Carlos Tavares
This is going to be the question mark, but of course, we will fight for that. The second one, you asked me if eVMP will be used by Stellantis. As a matter of respect, I don't think I would - I should be talking about that kind of choices, first, because we are in a signing-to-closing period. Therefore, that kind of decisions cannot be made right now, of course, but it is quite clear that we believe in the competitiveness of eVMP. And at the appropriate time, we will discuss this with the other part of the family. And I believe that the competitiveness of eVMP will be quite clear to everybody, but so far, that decision is not made and cannot be made before the closing, so I would like to answer to you later on but not now on that matter.

 

[pumadog]

So you think John Elkann didn't read their joined merger presentation? Yes, Manley will stay in the company, but not at the top decision table. Of course Tavares can't answer that question officially yet. It's simply logical.

 

[Bili]

Yes, Manley will stay in the company, but not at the top decision table.

AFAIK the only guy above COO is CEO. So yes, Manley will be asked.

You didn't listen merger related Conference Call?

Of course Tavares can't answer that question officially yet. It's simply logical.

He can't due to EU antitrust regulations. They just can't start any joint planning or development. Not on already started projects.

In some other countries/regions merger related antitrust is not so impeding.

 

[Deckard Cain]

To me that seems to imply he will push to use eVMP in future products. Which makes sense, since Tavares likes to launch multiple products from each brand in the same segments to create economies of scale instead of FCA, who is afraid of cannibalization.

 

[AlexB]

PSA EMP2 v4 (cVMP) platform

In calendar 2023 PSA will unveil first car on cVMP platform, formally known as EMP2 v4. The new generation of Peugeot 3008 SUV model. IMO yet again PSA marketing department had pulled a brilliant move calling the platform new although it's not so much. Platform will be suitable for BEV, PHEV...

moparinsiders.com

FCA has very high ATP in the US because they got rid of compact and midsize cars.
With PSA they might consider getting back into these segments. IMO to do that they would have to bring something new such as EV exclusive models to this segment. They can't win against Honda or Toyota in any other way and the japanese are very skeptical of EVs.

Those are Tavares's words to which Manley didn't agree. You can relisten joint FCA-PSA Conference Call.
You can hear more. First step is in sharing components, not platforms. I always said that platform sharing is not so important. Components sharing is.

The thing is that something which works in Europe doesn't work in South or North America. Three important region for different products. Actually China is the most similar to Europe but that's the only region where Stellantis is far from good. And even there they are in love with long wheelbase versions of European cars.

For example applying PSA 2 platform B to D segment approach in America will end up in around $25k transaction price. How do I know it? It's very simple. Honda has such approach and their ATP in US is around $26k.
Just for comparison pre COVID19 crisis market had eclipsed $35k ATP and came close to $40k. AFAIK FCA has very high ATP in US.

BTW, in June FCA U.S. ATP reached $43,781 ....near $44 K before the new Wagoner/Grand Wagoneer ....new Grand Cherokee are rolled out. $50,000 ATP is a realistic for FIAT Chrysler in the U.S.
What many people forget is that in addtion to the U.S. buyer moving away from traditional passenger cars, one problem the U.S. Government had with pre-bankruptcy Chrysler and GM was they got too little Average Transaction Price vs Toyota/Honda.

 

[AlexB]

AFAIK the only guy above COO is CEO. So yes, Manley will be asked.

You didn't listen merger related Conference Call?




He can't due to EU antitrust regulations. They just can't start any joint planning or development. Not on already started projects.

In some other countries/regions merger related antitrust is not so impeding.

Tavares will be hitting the magic age of 65 3 years into Stellantis. Manley is the likely person to succeed Tavares unless John wants to CEO.