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Next-Generation Grand Cherokee PHEV Powertrain Mule

VoiceOfReason

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"There is no doubt that the entire auto industry will be switching to a gas/electric powertrain combination on most vehicles within the next decade."
There is no doubt that is the consensus, but let's see how sales uptake progresses on these things before declaring the shift to electricification to be a foregone conclusion.
If I recall, Manley was hoping they would reach 5% by 2025. Perhaps that was next year, I don't recall, but after 20-25 years of this amazing, stupendous, incredible, and otherwise superlative laden paradigm shift toward electrification, we're still only predicting 5% uptake. This, also, against a backdrop of similar, previously failed predictions.

It is as if they are asking everyone except those who matter - the ones actually buying the cars. The overwhelming majority of such people have rejected electricification on the order of 96%.
Gas turbine cars . . .
Flying cars . . .

It's fun to make bold predictions, but, don't discount the hand that feeds. You're going to build what buyers buy, period. If you don't, you won't be building things for long.
 

Blown7

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The thing about these systems scare me is the complexity.. I'm a mechanic well versed in Chrysler down to the can bus commands and codes.. but there is ALOT of electrons working these systems.. an all have to be going in the correct direction at the correct time....
 

Freshforged

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The thing about these systems scare me is the complexity.. I'm a mechanic well versed in Chrysler down to the can bus commands and codes.. but there is ALOT of electrons working these systems.. an all have to be going in the correct direction at the correct time....

This is why I’m such a fan of full-on BEVs—their drop-dead simple mechanical nature. Designed right they will last decades needing only a few battery swaps on the way.
 

Bili

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Electrification is the future. No doubt about it.
 

VoiceOfReason

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Electrification is the future. No doubt about it.
YOU may not have doubts.
Others do.
There may be no doubt that car makers are adding electrification, but there is ample doubt about John Q Public choosing electric over ICE.
Other people are making predictions. I am referring to empirical fact.
So far, after almost a quarter of a century of electric car availability, they have still yet to attract so much as 4% of new car sales.
Europe is even worse. They’re about half that.

This is all being pushed by legislation, not market demand.
 

TripleT

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Every vehicle sold will have some version of electrification in the next 3 years, its happening.

Keys

At what level.... it will vary mostly eliminating the current lead acid system with mild hybrid component.
How invisible it is too the operator.

There is no doubting it. It is happening as we speak. Whether one likes it or not the snow ball is rolling down hill and it is in the implementation phase now.

Some are overthinking it on forums treating it like it a bad word, it is happen as natural improvement to current systems.

There no demand for "electrification" but there is for more efficient vehicles. When treated it with that view it is different.
 

VoiceOfReason

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Every vehicle sold will have some version of electrification in the next 3 years, its happening.

Keys

At what level.... it will vary mostly eliminating the current lead acid system with mild hybrid component.
How invisible it is too the operator.

There is no doubting it. It is happening as we speak. Whether one likes it or not the snow ball is rolling down hill and it is in the implementation phase now.

Some are overthinking it on forums treating it like it a bad word, it is happen as natural improvement to current systems.

There no demand for "electrification" but there is for more efficient vehicles. When treated it with that view it is different.
I'm not doubting the direction of the manufacturers, that is already apparent and some are already on roads. Where I disagree with the broader consensus is this blind assumption that buyers are as enthusiastic about it as the projections and predictions would seem to indicate. People keep forgetting - people need to opt in to the purchases . . .
In some cases (Pentastar w/eTorque), the consumer won't have a choice. But where they do have a choice will be rather telling - and they always have the choice to select a different vehicle altogether.
 

VoiceOfReason

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There no demand for "electrification" but there is for more efficient vehicles. When treated it with that view it is different.
For some, but according to FCA's last report, they incurred charges hundreds of millions of Euros because . . . buyers did not opt for the more fuel efficient vehicles.
$77 Million in charges from the US alone for the same reason.

It isn't buyer/public demand that is driving this. It is punitive legislation.
 

Mastertech63

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Since the new ZF 8 spd. hybrid trans is a near drop-in for the current 8 spd., wouldn't it make sense that ALL vehicles using this transmission would get the upgrade? Thereby "electrifying" all the future products. Seems like a simple solution to me.
 

Mopar392

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I
Since the new ZF 8 spd. hybrid trans is a near drop-in for the current 8 spd., wouldn't it make sense that ALL vehicles using this transmission would get the upgrade? Thereby "electrifying" all the future products. Seems like a simple solution to me.
it is not as simple as that.
The electrical architecture has to change and validated.
Then comes the bean counters question, is it worth it for the current design to go through all the changes or wait for the new design?
 

VoiceOfReason

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Since the new ZF 8 spd. hybrid trans is a near drop-in for the current 8 spd., wouldn't it make sense that ALL vehicles using this transmission would get the upgrade? Thereby "electrifying" all the future products. Seems like a simple solution to me.
When I refer to "electrification", I'm talking specifically about electric primary drive vehicles whose propulsion is entirely electrical with the only ICE contingent being essentially a battery charger. Electric assisted ICEs will be prevalent, but mainly because most buyers know little about it - people who hang out in auto forums are a very atypical minority.
Wake me when electric primary drive vehicles reach 5% - at which point I'll point out that after all this time, they're still being rejected by 95% of the new car buying public. 10% isn't even on the radar and 25% (still being rejected by 3/4 of the new car buying public) is a pipe dream.
Even the people claiming electrification "is the future" are an extreme minority. That overall population minority may be a majority on auto related web sites with dozens of active forum members, but in a country of 300 million people, that's not even a rounding error.
I also suspect that the day it becomes clear that this trend toward trying to force electrification through legislation goes away, so will all the predictions based on them.
Hundreds of millions of Euros spent on fuel economy related fines, $77 million in the US - and this on top of buying "green" credits from Tesla. Once people realize that the emperor (UNIPCC and their University of East Anglia puppets) have no clothes, this electrification "disruption" will settle, fizzle, and people will realize that the world did not end and they had been lied to.
Again.
 

TripleT

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Universal adoption is in the implementation phase. The debate is over. One can pine about the motivation but the course is set.

As for primary electric, we are in a transition phase. It take only a look at BOm to see what is behind the push towards that.by manufacturer.

Thread is PHEV.... so that is off subject.

Total adoption is on the way, regardless of leve a plug is a nice add.
 

VoiceOfReason

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Universal adoption is in the implementation phase. The debate is over. One can pine about the motivation but the course is set.

As for primary electric, we are in a transition phase. It take only a look at BOm to see what is behind the push towards that.by manufacturer.

Thread is PHEV.... so that is off subject.

Total adoption is on the way, regardless of leve a plug is a nice add.
Doesn’t matter. If they don’t sell, they’re next to useless. The customer determines the future. You either satisfy the customer or you go out of business. If you think that less than 4% of the new car buying public is going to convince the other 96%, you go ahead and bet your money on that prediction. I find it amusing that everyone just assumes that legislation driven product is going to change buying habits.

Question to the electric drive faithful - what are you going to do when all these paradigm shifting disruptor models sit unsold on dealer lots?
Continue to manufacture them citing the same old “right around the corner” canard?
Write new laws forcing people to buy them?
Punish the manufacturers for not selling enough of them?
Try to entice customers to buy them with taxpayer funded incentives?
You may notice all but one of the above has been done and still failed only to produce a little over 3% of new car sales in the US and even less in Europe.
Those are not opinions, but historical, empirical fact and truth.

This thread was started to address the author’s “no doubt” statement and the scope of the claim. Hybrid electrification would not exist outside of the fuel economy mandates punishing manufacturers for . . . what their customers are buying. Electric primary drive vehicles are failing to match the predicted sales uptake and you can only stop/start so much and buy so many credits from Tesla to avoid exorbitant federal charges.

The car buying public is not pushing electric hybridization. Punitive legislation is. The market demand simply does not exist, at least nowhere near enough to justify the R&D capital expenditures.

Eventually, people will figure it out and the legislative directives pressing this direction will return to normalcy. The big variable is how much financial damage will be done before the powers that be come to that realization.

Outside of a few (very few, extreme minority few) members on automotive forums, I am seeing absolutely zero interest in these developments. No one I know has expressed any interest or is delaying any purchase waiting for more advanced electrification. Granted, I only have about 6,000 or so social media contacts . . .

These things will sit on lots, production will cease, and little will change. They’ll offer incentives to get rid of them, which will work to clear off aging inventory, but demand will not sustain production. Auto makers will end up paying even more fines, but at least they will be able to say, “Look, we tried everything, but they don’t sell. You have to stop punishing us for what our customers choose to buy.” And they’ll be right.
Valiant effort, but it was a no win scenario at the onset. Lesson learned. Listen to your customers.
 
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TripleT

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I get that your passionate about it, by the amount your typing but it doesn't matter. The implementation for total compliance has begun. You could type War and Peace and it wont stop the momentum. IT IS HAPPENING.... at this point your typing is just complaining. 2 years ago I said 5, do the math. Remember what I do.

Even if your assertions are 100% correct the Industry as a whole has decided this is the direction the snow ball is rolling,

Everything will have some sort of revised electrical powertrain component even if it just to replace the current lead acid system.

Preach all you wish the decision was made 5 years ago and actually pushed ahead last year..... This not a FCA think it a Industry wide thing.

I am not arguing for it, I am just telling you its happening. You need to win in 5 year ago,,,, it too late now,
 

VoiceOfReason

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I get that your passionate about it, by the amount your typing but it doesn't matter. The implementation for total compliance has begun. You could type War and Peace and it wont stop the momentum. IT IS HAPPENING.... at this point your typing is just complaining. 2 years ago I said 5, do the math. Remember what I do.

Even if your assertions are 100% correct the Industry as a whole has decided this is the direction the snow ball is rolling,

Everything will have some sort of revised electrical powertrain component even if it just to replace the current lead acid system.

Preach all you wish the decision was made 5 years ago and actually pushed ahead last year..... This not a FCA think it a Industry wide thing.

I am not arguing for it, I am just telling you its happening. You need to win in 5 year ago,,,, it too late now,
You’re still missing the purchase side of things.
Who is buying these?
Next to nobody.
That is not opinion, it is empirical fact.

I already said I was not doubting the manufacturers direction - they were bound by legislation from five years ago that was based on assumptions and predictions that even the CAFE proponents admitted did not materialize.

The predictions from five years ago were wrong.
Just like the predictions that people are all of a sudden going to start buying these things because CAFE and CARB said the manufacturers had to make them.

Wake me when you reach 5% of new car sales.

(you may not be aware of what I do - I am a project manager for FCA’s High Performance Compute team; think “engine development”)
 

TripleT

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You’re still missing the purchase side of things.
Who is buying these?
Next to nobody.
That is not opinion, it is empirical fact.

I already said I was not doubting the manufacturers direction - they were bound by legislation from five years ago that was based on assumptions and predictions that even the CAFE proponents admitted did not materialize.

The predictions from five years ago were wrong.
Just like the predictions that people are all of a sudden going to start buying these things because CAFE and CARB said the manufacturers had to make them.

Wake me when you reach 5% of new car sales.

(you may not be aware of what I do - I am a project manager for FCA’s High Performance Compute team; think “engine development”)

Your projecting a bit.... I not arguing with you. I am telling you what is happening. Because I dont really care, it like arguing about Jeep based CUVs back it the day, they were coming whether the enthusiast wanted them or not.

Everyone is going to buy them because that all that is going to be offered (your think Jeep and Ram buyers know they are getting a mild hybrid?) I know several non-enthusiast that had no idea, but they have e-torque thingy that makes the mileage better. EU first. Everything will have a electric components to it, everything. Glad your on the team. If your somehow claiming that FCA is going be the on island by itself without some sort of Electric boast to it? I got to tell you that not what I have been told. And EVERYONE else will. Mostly invisible to the vehicle operations. The Class 9 issues are being resolved by local assembly, removing the weight not directly associated to the Class 9 materials 400KG limits.

Now we may be talking past each other.... I am talking Mild Hybrid to full Electric...... I never said full Electric. The infrastructure doesn't exist to support it. And Frankly I think the EU is bit optimistic with it regulations, it not like the power grid is that stable to begin with. Move all transportation energy through those lines will be interested to see.

Lets talk again in 3 years.... For sure every new model will have a upgraded Electric component to it. If not exclusively offered in significant volume associated to it even in NA. How is your programming skills in that integration? FCA doesn't they will be bucking the trend like they did with cars. Trying to run through my head of implementing models that don't within FCA and I can't think of one. Your closer to FCA... both, Alfas, All the Masers, Renegade, Compass, GC, GCL, Ram, Wrangler, Pacifica already, The big jeeps will share Ram powertrain. CUSW Jeeps, the 500, so will the Next Panda...... You got me.... something coming without it?
 
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Blown7

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For my two cents... I may be willing to purchase a electric motor 8 speed ZF transmission in a new Trackhawk... IF either system will run independent of each other if the other fails....

Supposedly the performance is better...

But if a electric battery system fault causes the ICE side of the transmission to stop working at all.. then I'm pissed.
 

Mastertech63

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I am ready to embrace the new technology. However, like most people, I suffer from range anxiety! I know that with an ICE powerplant refueling is almost a non-issue. Even if I run out of fuel rescue is not far off. With battery only, when you run out you're out. There are no motorclubs that can bring you a recharge! Once the industry can surpass this hurdle I am sure more people will buy into the all-electric vehicles. Industry AND society have a ways to go before full adoption.
Short term adoption is hybrid technology and that will be my next purchase. Still want a Charger but life says I should get Durango.
 

VoiceOfReason

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we may be talking past each other
To some degree, yes. I'm not doubting that manufacturers, not just FCA, have bitten the electric bullet. I'm not debating that. I've seen the five year plan.
What I'm saying is, the push for electrification is a solution seeking out a problem. The problem it addresses is legislative, not market driven.
The legislative directives driving electrification were based on assumptions that are now known to be wrong. 35 mpg is known to be unreasonable across an entire fleet of vehicles customers purchase and 50 mpg isn't even remotely realistic, given what we know now about customer buying habits.
The predictions driving the 50 mpg mandate were dramatically optimistic and way wrong. CAFE/CARB, the EU, etc. are going to have two options:
- Roll back the unrealistic directives
- Find a way to force customers to buy/lease something they do not want.

Anyone notice the new Corvette? No hybridization, a 0-60 time of less than 3 seconds and a starting price under $60,000.
Electrification and hybridization drive costs upward. The first company to figure out that people aren't willing to pay extra for electrification wins.
Now, there are rumors of a 1,000 horsepower electric hybrid in the works, but those will not make it to market anywhere near $60,000 - if the rumors are even true.
The truth is, the average person could care less about whether the car they buy is a hybrid or not, but almost universally, people do care about cost. If the electric/hybrid versions are available for a negligible cost difference, then people might opt for it. However, if they have the option of a straight up ICE vs hybrid and the hybrid costs more, most people will opt for the ICE only vehicle. You can try to force it by not making any ICE vehicles available, but all it takes is for a competitor to offer one and undercut everyone on price.

I'm not suggesting they should not offer PHEVs, BEVs, etc. but I would not bet the future on them. The day negotiations change the language on the emissions standards, many will find the additional expense of electrification has no sustainable market (financially speaking).
 

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