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Fiat Chrysler, PSA in merger talks, WSJ says

Deckard Cain

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Tavares just said that he doesn't believe they need to kill any brand. Now I am curious how he will make Lancia survive and why to keep investing in DS now that they have Alfa.
 

pumadog

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Tavares just said that he doesn't believe they need to kill any brand. Now I am curious how he will make Lancia survive and why to keep investing in DS now that they have Alfa.
Question is if he sees Lancia as a living brand and DS or Abarth as a full brand. From a distance, Lancia and DS match pretty well IMHO. Should they do another batch-couple like Opel/Vauxhall?
 

Bili

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Question is if he sees Lancia as a living brand and DS or Abarth as a full brand. From a distance, Lancia and DS match pretty well IMHO. Should they do another batch-couple like Opel/Vauxhall?

Yes, that's interesting.

I agree that on the first it may look like they will have too much brands. Which is partially true. But I don't see Abarth as a brand. No to mention that Fiat with commercial program in South America, Fiat Professional and Ram are very often considered as a single brand. And what's Lancia?
It's similar on the other side with Vauxhall and Opel.

He mentioned that all of brands have heritage. But what is a DS? Hmh.

With this deduction we could have 1 commercial brand which we may call Ram, then 2 American brands in Dodge and Chrysler, 1 mass market European brand in Fiat, Jeep as a global brand, Alfa premium and Maserati luxury. That's 7 brands on FCA side.
And then 3 on French with Citroen, Peugeot and Opel.
That's 10 in total.

Can they manage all of them? I bet there will be a lot "badge engineering" in Europe but European brands are very dependent on their home market.

I'm wondering how will French people accept Alfa and Jeep. Will they look at them as French brands? If they will than good sales numbers will come from France.
 

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John Elkann: “La fusione con Psa è appena cominciata, faremo cose grandi” - La Stampa


Twenty years ago, when I started working on it, Fiat was in a very difficult situation. It wasn't competitive against its standards. We re-designed it in the future, with the merger with Chrysler. And now with Psa we are excited to imagine the challenges of the future and the opportunities that open up". John Elkann chooses the Technology Festival and the Polytechnic of Turin, where he graduated in 2000, to comment for the first time publicly on the merger project between Fca and Psa: "For now the merger has been announced, making it will take some time, even a long time". But the challenges that the new group will have to face in the world of tomorrow, for the president of Fca, are at least three:

"The automotive industry is about to experience an epoch-making change, similar in scope to that of the 1920s. There is a transition from a combustion engine to an electric motor or other propulsion system. There will be a major technical change that will change the internal dimensions of vehicles because the electric motor needs different spaces. Today the car is the product that contains more software than all the others, but the next few years will see an evolution of the interface and a greater connection.

The third big development element will be the autonomous driving: "I can proudly say that we are the only group in the world to have developed a car that works completely independently, in Arizona, in partnership with Google. The way we move and see transport functions will change, but there are still a lot of problems to be solved.

The logic of mergers remains for Elkann the way to go to equip himself better because of this momentous change. "We have benefited a lot from the agreement with Chrysler and Peugeot of the one with Opel. Only industrial operations made to spread the investments on more cars. Now the next twenty years will bring many opportunities: finding solutions with less environmental impact, new ways to make cities work. In this context, a city like Turin, with its education system and Polytechnic, is very well placed to contribute to this challenge. In the logic of the aggregation in progress Elkann sees a new role for Turin: "The city had a great development when the capital of Italy was transferred to Florence. There was a great identity crisis from which we came out investing in new solutions. Today we are at a similar time. Turin is the heart of the investment in electric propulsion and for this reason, assures Elkann, "the strength of the city, linked to its past in the automotive industry will be its strength also in the future".
 
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AlexB

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Does Trump really have much of a say in this? Dongfeng will have 6%, is that critical?


I could imagine Alfa's B crossover on CMP. It's planned to get a BEV version. And a hypothetical Mito successor. CMP should be better than SCCS. What should they use instead for a car that has BEV and IC variants? Or do you think FCA's new BEV platform fits into Small Wide?

There's a recent (German) interview with Tavares where he calls "normal" HEVs as outdated with the arrival of PHEVs and BEVs.
Yes, read the Huawei thread....North America is changing hands again ....its a new Netherlands Company is being formed.
Dongfeng is the easy part.
 

Deckard Cain

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Question is if he sees Lancia as a living brand and DS or Abarth as a full brand. From a distance, Lancia and DS match pretty well IMHO. Should they do another batch-couple like Opel/Vauxhall?

Damn, I always thought of pairing Opel with Lancia, but pairing DS with Lancia makes so much more sense!!
 

Deckard Cain

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Here's the article about no brands being killed.

PSA Group and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles have no plans to scrap any of their brands following their $50 billion merger, PSA CEO Carlos Tavares told a French television station.
The proposed combination of of the two groups would create the world's fourth-largest automaker with 8.7 million in annual vehicle sales. It would bring together 13 brands including Jeep, Ram, Opel/Vauxhall, Peugeot, Citroen, Alfa Romeo and Maserati.
Industry watchers have questioned whether PSA-FCA will need all the brands, especially since some of Fiat Chrysler's brands need heavy investments to renew their lineups and also because of the risks of brands competing against each other for sales.
"It is part of the challenge to properly manage these brands to cover the market," Tavares told BFM Business on Friday.
"I see that all these brands, without exception, have one thing in common: they have a fabulous history," Tavares said. "We love the history of car brands, it gives us a foundation on which we can project ourselves into the future. So today, I don't see any need, if this deal is concluded, to remove brands because they all have their history and they all have their strengths."
Tavares said the merged group "would indeed have a significant number of brands" but said the number would be lower than Volkswagen Group's tally.
VW Group has 10 passenger vehicle brands, if newer Chinese ones such as electric vehicle label Sihao are included.

Tavares said the companies complemented each other well geographically and in terms of technology and brands.
"There's no doubt it's a very good deal for both parties. It's a win-win," he said.
FCA derives 66 percent of its revenue from North America compared with only 5.7 percent for PSA, Refinitiv Eikon data shows. Europe remains the main revenue driver for PSA.
Tavares is seen as the architect of PSA's turnaround and is in line to take the operational helm as CEO in the tie-up.

Potential job losses
One of thorniest aspects of the deal are the potential job losses at stake in a group with a combined workforce of around 400,000, with governments in Rome and Paris as well as unions poring over the implications.
Tavares reaffirmed that the companies could reach billions of euros in annual cost savings without closing factories. But he did not rule out job cuts when pressed, only stating: "That's the car industry, it's not about PSA."
"Margins are continually under pressure and you have to permanently be looking for productivity gains," he said, pointing to stricter regulations on everything from safety to pollution.
The automakers are targeting annual cost savings of 3.7 billion euros ($4.09 billion) as part of a planned merger, which was unveiled at the end of October.
Tavares said the automakers will target productivity improvements over time.
The deal would help the companies to pool resources to meet tough new emissions rules and investments in electric and self-driving vehicles, as well as counter a broader downturn in car markets.
PSA and FCA have said they aim to reach a binding outline in the coming weeks.
The merger will also require approval from anti-trust authorities.
Tavares said the two groups are willing to make all necessary concessions to get a green light from the European Union. "Given all the necessary regulatory approvals that need to be granted, such a deal cannot be closed in less than a year," he said.
He said the companies remained prudent, adding that he has seen transactions scuppered when parties got into the details. Talks towards a binding agreement were evolving favorably, he said.
FCA Chairman John Elkann, who would chair the combined group, said on Friday at an event in Turin that the 50-50 share merger would help the automaker "seize great opportunities."

As for the brands some brands don't even have to be considered independent brands. Abarth are just sport versions of Fiats. Vauxhall is Opel.
If they pair DS with Lancia, which makes a lot of sense that decreases complexity as well and it actually improves the image of DS by pairing it with a storied brand.
 

Deckard Cain

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Something else to consider... With the merger, probably product that's been stuck in North America might see the light of day sooner?
 

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Where this gets interesting for me is with the commercial vehicles. Fiat and PSA have been in a joint venture with LCVs for a number of years. The large vans we know as Fiat Ducato and Ram ProMaster also are built in Citroen, Opel, Peugeot, and Vauxhall versions. The PSA vans use different drivetrains along with other engineering changes. FCA and PSA seemed to have gone separate ways on the next size smaller vans when Fiat badged engineered a Renault van for their Talento. Toyota then took Fiat's place on the mid-size van line. Opel was using a badge engineered version of the Fiat Doblo (sold here as the Ram PMC), but that was replaced by a new PSA based van. There are smaller vans as well, but I don't follow those as closely since they are not sold here and so don't show up where I work.

Little known information that's out there, but ignored.

1. FCA is grooming Ram to be a global brand. How this all fits in with Fiat Professional is unknown to me, but it looks like FCA is executing a global, cohesive commercial vehicle strategy.

2. PSA Group is expanding their commercial vehicle production, not contracting. PSA is refurbishing and expanding a production facility in Poland to meet demand for their full size vans. The UK facility producing Vauxhall vans has been updated and not shuttered. I think there is also expansion in Portugal as well.

3. PSA wants to sell pickup trucks. They currently sell a rebadged Donfeng pickup in Africa as a Peugeot, but the PSA group is also involved with another Chinese company, ChangAn to build a pickup to be sold under more PSA brands and in other markets.

4. Dieselgate affects all EU manufacturers, not just Fiat. PSA like FCA also has to go from diesel to electrification overnight. Yes, both companies were previously involved with research and development in EVs, but the situation now demands a very rapid pace.
 

AlfaCuda

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Imo if there’s one brand that can be chopped off it’s DS. Will anybody mind? I don’t think so.
I read somewhere that Peugoet could use Giorgio. That’s interesting as the larger Peugoets used to be rwd.

Abarth? I think that it has enormous potential as a tuning brand. Not just for Fiat but for the French brands too. Abarth used to tune Simcas back in the day. And then there’s the “Gordini” badge that used to adorn fast Renaults. Amadee Gordini was Italian. So there’s some history of Italian tuned French cars.

Frankly I don’t have any idea about what they should do with Opel and Vauxhall. Apart from being a good entrance ticket to the German and UK market do they really offer any other value?

With so much vacant European factory space and US C & D dealers starving for products I don’t see any harm in “made in Europe” badge engineered Opels and Peugoets sent across the Atlantic.

I have maintained before and continue to say that Lancia is an untapped jewel that successive management teams have had to either move down on priority lists due to a lack of resources, or completely failed to grasp its potential. If Tavares was able to make Peugoet and Citroen into commercially successful brands Lancia should be a piece of cake. It has tons more heritage that those two French brands put together!

Alfa Romeo and Jeep? I would expect an increase in French market sales for both as these two gain access to the PSA network.
 

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Imo if there’s one brand that can be chopped off it’s DS. Will anybody mind? I don’t think so.
I read somewhere that Peugoet could use Giorgio. That’s interesting as the larger Peugoets used to be rwd.

Abarth? I think that it has enormous potential as a tuning brand. Not just for Fiat but for the French brands too. Abarth used to tune Simcas back in the day. And then there’s the “Gordini” badge that used to adorn fast Renaults. Amadee Gordini was Italian. So there’s some history of Italian tuned French cars.

Frankly I don’t have any idea about what they should do with Opel and Vauxhall. Apart from being a good entrance ticket to the German and UK market do they really offer any other value?

With so much vacant European factory space and US C & D dealers starving for products I don’t see any harm in “made in Europe” badge engineered Opels and Peugoets sent across the Atlantic.

I have maintained before and continue to say that Lancia is an untapped jewel that successive management teams have had to either move down on priority lists due to a lack of resources, or completely failed to grasp its potential. If Tavares was able to make Peugoet and Citroen into commercially successful brands Lancia should be a piece of cake. It has tons more heritage that those two French brands put together!

Alfa Romeo and Jeep? I would expect an increase in French market sales for both as these two gain access to the PSA network.

Don't expect much about Lancia.

Peugeot and Giorgio? Hmh. I think it's too expensive for them. Maybe I'm wrong.

PSA products in North America? They would need to reengineer them. For US standards but also for AWD capability. In other words they will need a lot of time and money to do so.
 

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Tavares just said that he doesn't believe they need to kill any brand. Now I am curious how he will make Lancia survive and why to keep investing in DS now that they have Alfa.

Yes, but there will be factory closures.

3.6 billion of savings per year is without factory closures.

And one important thing. FCA makes more cars than PSA. FCA has less workers than PSA. FCA has almost completely finished process in which they will lay off 5000 workers in Europe.
 

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Someone-else pointed outs that with Brexit, Vauxhall factories are a goner. Opel might be in hot water after being sold for the second time in two years. The merger will do nothing to get lancing off of life support. by doubling down on the European market it increases pressure on North American operation.
 

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Someone-else pointed outs that with Brexit, Vauxhall factories are a goner. Opel might be in hot water after being sold for the second time in two years. The merger will do nothing to get lancing off of life support. by doubling down on the European market it increases pressure on North American operation.

Opel and Vauxhall will stay because they are very important for their domicile markets. But Opel's R&D may be closed together with some German and British factories.
 

AlfaCuda

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Don't expect much about Lancia

Can’t do too much harm with having a semi-premium brand to attack the lower range of 3 strong German competitors.. Needs a will.

I don’t expect much but hoping Tavares May have ideas different to the “recovering from bankruptcy” flavor that’s been with FCA pre-PSA. I’m thinking development budgets will get larger too.
 

Bili

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Can’t do too much harm with having a semi-premium brand to attack the lower range of 3 strong German competitors.. Needs a will.

We don't need a brand which will aid internal cannibalisation.

Peugeot, Jeep and Alfa are more than enough to counter Germans in Italy.
 

Deckard Cain

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Where this gets interesting for me is with the commercial vehicles. Fiat and PSA have been in a joint venture with LCVs for a number of years. The large vans we know as Fiat Ducato and Ram ProMaster also are built in Citroen, Opel, Peugeot, and Vauxhall versions. The PSA vans use different drivetrains along with other engineering changes. FCA and PSA seemed to have gone separate ways on the next size smaller vans when Fiat badged engineered a Renault van for their Talento. Toyota then took Fiat's place on the mid-size van line. Opel was using a badge engineered version of the Fiat Doblo (sold here as the Ram PMC), but that was replaced by a new PSA based van. There are smaller vans as well, but I don't follow those as closely since they are not sold here and so don't show up where I work.

Little known information that's out there, but ignored.

1. FCA is grooming Ram to be a global brand. How this all fits in with Fiat Professional is unknown to me, but it looks like FCA is executing a global, cohesive commercial vehicle strategy.

2. PSA Group is expanding their commercial vehicle production, not contracting. PSA is refurbishing and expanding a production facility in Poland to meet demand for their full size vans. The UK facility producing Vauxhall vans has been updated and not shuttered. I think there is also expansion in Portugal as well.

3. PSA wants to sell pickup trucks. They currently sell a rebadged Donfeng pickup in Africa as a Peugeot, but the PSA group is also involved with another Chinese company, ChangAn to build a pickup to be sold under more PSA brands and in other markets.

4. Dieselgate affects all EU manufacturers, not just Fiat. PSA like FCA also has to go from diesel to electrification overnight. Yes, both companies were previously involved with research and development in EVs, but the situation now demands a very rapid pace.

I think that we mostly forget the commercial vehicle side of the equation because it's just not sexy. But you bring a good point because the synergies are too big to ignore in that area of the business.
Yes, PSA expanded their production in Portugal of LCVs. They poduce the Peugeot Rifter and Citroen Berlingo here. They're really good vans actually.
A friend of mine even has the passenger version for his family (he has a lot of kids), and it's a really nice car. Hard plastics everywhere but that's to be expected in a car that is based on a commercial vehicle.

As for Opel/Vauxhall, the value they offer in the UK and german market is enormous. It's not "just" that value, it really is enormous. Also their R&D and development centers in Germany were quite good and I don't believe they will get rid of those, because then they can keep marketing the "german engineering" with Opel.

There's an opportunity to increase the use of the Giorgio platform IMO in potential new DS models.
DS currently has the DS 7 Crossback as a midsize SUV offer, but they could consider doing a E-segment Giorgio DS 9 SUV together with a E-segment Alfa SUV for example.
They also have a new DS 8 midsize sedan coming out soon. It's based on the EMP2 platform of the 508.
Maybe they could make E-segment Giorgio sedans for DS paired with Alfa.
There's potential for synergies there, and the use of a RWD platform will increase the status of DS. In the future they could replace the DS 7 Crossback and this DS 8 sedan with RWD versions since Giorgio was already designed with electrification in consideration.
 

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Looking at the EMEA and China sales, I don't see much hunger for DS. If they continue despite having Alfa and Maserati in the house, it might just be a matter of french pride. If they don't, they might let the current DS models run their course under Citroen (again). And honestly, I don't see much hunger for Lancia outside Italy as well. But IF they want to keep DS and Lancia, they could couple them IMHO.

Europe 2018: 45,000 — best year 2012: 117,000
China 2018: 4,000 — best year 2014: 26,000

 

patfromigh

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As for Opel/Vauxhall, the value they offer in the UK and german market is enormous. It's not "just" that value, it really is enormous. Also their R&D and development centers in Germany were quite good and I don't believe they will get rid of those, because then they can keep marketing the "german engineering" with Opel.
PSA Group has invested a lot of resources into the Vauxhall facility in Luton, England to build vans. here is a link.

I don't know much about Opel operations. I've read some accounts that the Adam model is on the chopping block because of the price squeeze appearing with the latest emissions regulations. I'm looking forward to seeing the new Fiat 500EV. It is supposed to be on a dedicated BEV platform. It will be good to have more brands to share that platform with.
 

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