BREAKING: Windsor Will Begin Building A New Electrified Vehicle In 2024:

[cygnus]

The 3.0 without a mild hybrid or PHEV is totally uninteresting. The 93 octane HO variant is a joke, I can’t believe they wasted tens of millions on that. The only reason it’s offered is frankly a poor business reason - global export.

The global export numbers are anemic. There was a path forward for the V8 that included electrification, which could take hold until a 202X designed V8 could happen.

Instead we have a DOA 3L global export engine foisted upon a brand and EV variants that no one is asking for. Thanks European leadership!!!

 

[TripleT]

The 3.0 without a mild hybrid or PHEV is totally uninteresting. The only reason it’s offered is frankly a poor business reason - global export.

The global export numbers are anemic. There was a path forward for the V8 that included electrification, which could take hold until a 202X designed V8 could happen.

Instead we have a DOA 3L global export engine foisted upon a brand and EV variants that no one is asking for. Thanks European leadership!!!

You just wrong. It easily outperforms the current V8s, has a lot of room for more boast and the Eagle can handle none. It much lighter, more, efficient, make more HP, more Torque, That it comes under the 3.0 Liter tax is just a bonus, and why not when it out performs the Eagle and Apache at that displacement. It also helps it share sizes with it 4 cylinder sister 2.0 /4 is .5 displacement per cylinder.

You know one can be for the V8 and for the PHEV version without trashing the new powerplant? Which by all account is very nice. At this point is coming off a some weird vendetta. If one wants to make a argument that will convince someone it needs to be a positive one, not a negative one based no logic.

What one should argue is for a V8 that would take advantages of lessons from the Hurricane, not that the Hurricane is crap, because if it is Crap then Eagle and Apache are bigger crap.

 

[cygnus]

You just wrong. It easily outperforms the current V8

Maybe on a white-paper stats that no Customer actually cares about. The 3L has been a total flop for the Wagoneer thus far. It's going to be a total flop when it's introduced next year for the 2024 Ram MCA.

The only thing that could save the 3L at this point are mild hybrid variants for Ram and PHEV variants for Dodge/Jeep. But they will charge out the wazoo for either, and have marginal interest from their existing Customer base who would prefer a clean sheet V8 design with mild/full hybrid variants.

The opportunity cost wasted on the 3L design could have been applied to a new V8 design that people actually care about, instead of a 3L that's flopping and BEVs that the millennial Dodge demographic are totally disinterested in. The only reason they are doing Dodge BEVs are for global export out of Canada. Do you think profit from these global exports will exceed what Dodge did with a 10 year old V8 design and warmed over L cars? It's actually a miracle Dodge did as well as they did with as little investment they received from 2011-today.

Your analysis for the 3L is entirely one dimensional (stats on paper) and not looking at the actual Customers that buy these vehicles (and why they buy these vehicles) + the opportunity cost wasted on not doing a clean sheet V8 design.

 

[TripleT]

Maybe on a white-paper stats that no consumer actually cares about. The 3L. has been a total flop for the Wagoneer thus far. It's going to be a total flop when it's introduced next year for the 2024 Ram MCA.

The opportunity cost wasted on the 3L design could have been applied to a new V8 design that people actually care about, instead of a 3L that's flopping and BEVs that the millennial Dodge demographic are totally disinterested in. Your analysis is entirely one dimensional (stats on paper) and not looking at the actual people that buy these vehicles and the opportunity cost wasted on not updating the V8.

Wow it flopped already.... hard to have discussion with someone who doesn't live in reality. Doesn't live in the regulatory reality, doesn't live in performance reality, Lives in a world where people only care about the V configuration, the number of Cylinders, and exhaust note. In a world where people prefer Straight six In HD trucks over the domestic competition with a V8

Again there no Logic around your assertion, Not being happy that we get a new more powerful better performing ICE option, ignoring ICE is being outlawed across the world and inside our own market. Instead you choose to spend time trashing it for what it is not.

Frankly it boring and tiresome. I am in car clubs, I know the people who buy these vehicles... They think there is NO ICE version in the future. Most are excited when they are told that there will be one. One that outperforms the current powerplants. Will they miss that exhaust note, sure but being gapped by something with 2 less cylinders and plenty of room to be Tuned changes that quick,

There is real world out there with ROIs, and regulatory realities.

 

[Mopar392]

It's true the LO 3.0 outperform the 5.7 HEMI which is long overdue for an update or replacement.
But the HO 3.0 and an update 6.4 HEMI can co-exist.

For example, Ford has versions of the 3.5L EcoBoost that can outperform and outpower, with a simple tune, the 5.0 Coyote or the 5.2 Predator. But they kept the V8 because who's ever in the market for these cars are looking for a V8 grunt and performance.

I'm not saying the HO 3.0 shouldn't exist or offered, but just saying large portion of whosever is buying a V8 Muscle car or truck wouldn't care about 1-2mpg improvement.

 

[cygnus]

Every piece of data I've seen and every person I've talked to that owns a 5.7 or 6.4 says they have ZERO interest in the 3L. Again, great job European Leadership! Here's a poll with 2500 votes -



What Customer data do you have to back up your position?

 

[TripleT]

It's true the LO 3.0 outperform the 5.7 HEMI which is long overdue for an update or replacement.
But the HO 3.0 and an update 6.4 HEMI can co-exist.

For example, Ford has versions of the 3.5L EcoBoost that can outperform and outpower, with a simple tune, the 5.0 Coyote or the 5.2 Predator. But they kept the V8 because who's ever in the market for these cars are looking for a V8 grunt and performance.

I'm not saying the HO 3.0 shouldn't exist or offered, but just saying large portion of whosever is buying a V8 Muscle car or truck wouldn't care about 1-2mpg improvement.

A PROPER ARGUEMENT

Let hope the V8 is just on Hiatus.... 2 to 3 years is a long time, There is time for a revised V8 to show up in SRT versions in the future.

Don't POO POO 2 mph and in lighter vehicles I expect 3, it all about corporate averages when multiplied over hundreds of thousands of vehicles. NA the company is very V8 heavy.

Way I look at the SD is more of Pentastar replacement, and HD a Eagle replacement which makes them a massive upgrade.

Ford is about the drop a EV product bomb across its lineup that make it easier to justify the V8. For all the bragging about the Mustang it just about got dropped. That it doesn't really sell that well in the scope of Ford helps it survive and minimize the regulatory impact.

 

[TripleT]

It's true the LO 3.0 outperform the 5.7 HEMI which is long overdue for an update or replacement.
But the HO 3.0 and an update 6.4 HEMI can co-exist.

For example, Ford has versions of the 3.5L EcoBoost that can outperform and outpower, with a simple tune, the 5.0 Coyote or the 5.2 Predator. But they kept the V8 because who's ever in the market for these cars are looking for a V8 grunt and performance.

I'm not saying the HO 3.0 shouldn't exist or offered, but just saying large portion of whosever is buying a V8 Muscle car or truck wouldn't care about 1-2mpg improvement.

Another thing, Kuniskis know darn well this is being talked about.

When he said this is not 1972.... I know it because people are saying it is 1972.

When they went to the trouble the new Concept to add a exhaust note, to add a transmission. They are worried that the core will lose interest.

He also knows that he has regulatory realities. Wants to still sell to the Coastal States.

 

[Mopar392]

A PROPER ARGUEMENT

Let hope the V8 is just on Hiatus.... 2 to 3 years is a long time, There is time for a revised V8 to show up in SRT versions in the future.

Don't POO POO 2 mph and in lighter vehicles I expect 3, it all about corporate averages when multiplied over hundreds of thousands of vehicles. NA the company is very V8 heavy.

Way I look at the SD is more of Pentastar replacement, and HD a Eagle replacement which makes them a massive upgrade.

Ford is about the drop a EV product bomb across its lineup that make it easier to justify the V8. For all the bragging about the Mustang it just about got dropped. That it doesn't really sell that well in the scope of Ford helps it survive and minimize the regulatory impact.

Another thing, Kuniskis know darn well this is being talked about.

When he said this is not 1972.... I know it because people are saying it is 1972.

When they went to the trouble the new Concept to add a exhaust note, to add a transmission. They are worried that the core will lose interest.

He also knows that he has regulatory realities. Wants to still sell to the Coastal States.

Yes, Ford confirmed having a Mach E helped keeping the V8 mustang, and having the other electrified cars and trucks helped them to keep the Mustang.

As I said previously, here I'm hoping having the PHEV Hornet can improve Dodge's corporate average numbers.
Also, offering a Charger in EV is not wrong, but wrong is eliminating the ICE all together, which what alot of people are worried about.

 

[TripleT]

Yes, Ford confirmed having a Mach E helped keeping the V8 mustang, and having the other electrified cars and trucks helped them to keep the Mustang.

As I said previously, here I'm hoping having the PHEV Hornet can improve Dodge's corporate average numbers.
Also, offering a Charger in EV is not wrong, but wrong is eliminating the ICE all together, which what alot of people are worried about.

Most Club people I talk to believe there in no ICE option.

The Hurricane shows up and outruns my car is going to draw some attention.

But Company has created the impression that there won't be ICE and you better buy up these last ones for top dollar. Saw a lot of paper plates on the back of cars this weekend. Which shows it working. Creating Urgency.

 

[Mopar392]

Most Club people I talk to believe there in no ICE option.

The Hurricane shows up and outruns my car is going to draw some attention.

But Company has created the impression that there won't be ICE and you better buy up these last ones for top dollar. Saw a lot of paper plates on the back of cars this weekend. Which shows it working. Creating Urgency.

It could be a marketing stunt to sell every last one of the HEMI-powered L-cars.
TBH, I'd like to see a comparison between a GW powered 6.4 and GW powered HO 3.0. This could give a fair indication of how a difference in HP/torque and weight is reflected in the real world.

 

[TripleT]

It could be a marketing stunt to sell every last one of the HEMI-powered L-cars.
TBH, I'd like to see a comparison between a GW powered 6.4 and GW powered HO 3.0. This could give a fair indication of how a difference in HP/torque and weight is reflected in the real world.

Frankly I think that was poor starting point to showcase the new powerplant. That thing is so heavy and shaped like a brick the Turbos are spooled constantly.

 

[Mopar392]

Frankly I think that was poor starting point to showcase the new powerplant. That thing is so heavy and shaped like a brick the Turbos are spooled constantly.

Could that be the heavy duty or truck version, and then there would be another version for the cars?

 

[Mopar392]

Let hope the V8 is just on Hiatus.... 2 to 3 years is a long time, There is time for a revised V8 to show up in SRT versions in the future.

I do have a feeling that Dodge will wait to see how their numbers improves with their PHEV and BEV offering and then offer a V8 of some kind.
I don't think they will allow themselves to lose their share of the muscle car market to Ford and their V8 Mustang.
They could become, as usual late to the party, but come with a big bang.

 

[TripleT]

I do have a feeling that Dodge will wait to see how their numbers improves with their PHEV and BEV offering and then offer a V8 of some kind.
I don't think they will allow themselves to lose their share of the muscle car market to Ford and their V8 Mustang.
They could become, as usual late to the party, but come with a big bang.

Most Mustangs will be non-V8 models, They will have Halo models with the V8 that won't make a blip on the Corporate average fuel economy.

The new Ls lighter better handling, with the Hurricane 4 will outperform everything with Pentastar, The SD Hurricane 6 will outperform everything with a Eagle, and Pentastar.... being lighter will approach the Apache performance. With some tuning on the ECU will. The HD Hurricane 6 will outperform everything but the Hellcat (which gulps fuel) being lighter and with better traction will approach the same performance especially turning up the wick. As PHEV and it will outperform the HellCat.

So they tough to compete... Your going the make NA V8 that gets outperform by the EV and PHEV 6? Nostalgia buys a lot but it going to have to be a absolute beast, and likely need some boost.

 

[cygnus]

Lol at thinking anyone is going to buy these cars with a four and six cylinder. Just wait!

It's really unfortunate though - the company is going to suffer in proving my points. Just remember it didn't have to be this way.

 

[Mopar392]

Lol at thinking anyone is going to buy these cars with a four and six cylinder. Just wait!

It's really unfortunate though - the company is going to suffer in proving my points. Just remember it didn't have to be this way.

Porsche, Ford, Mercedes and BMW proved otherwise.
people will buy performance regardless if it comes from 8, 6 or 4 cylinders.

 

[cygnus]

Charger and Challenger sell in way higher volume than any of those brands individual offerings. And Dodge buyers specifically avoid those brands because a lack of an affordable V8.

You guys are going to kill Dodge. The incredibly prevalent "becoming more relevant by shrinking marketshare" mindset. How'd that work out for the Big 3 the last 40 years?

This must be an age thing. Anyone under 40 I talk to (and the largest demographic of buyers for Dodge) gets it, anyone over 40 seems to be defending this position. Break out the EBIT and IRR for the last ten years for Dodge after offsetting carbon credits for Dodge - I dare you. Oh, and why do we need the Europeans again? Because we do business in China with PSA platforms and Chinese PSA suppliers provide us non-powertrain parts so we get better global pricing because we're a global automaker? Oh wait. We aren't big in China with PSA and that doesn't actually happen? Hell, even GM gets it right on that front. What do we need PSA for again? Gotta love those Agnelli's, they really look out for North America.

But hey - hurray for 14,000 Hornet reservations! That'll show 'em!

 

[ScramFan]

Charger and Challenger sell in way higher volume than any of those brands individual offerings. And Dodge buyers specifically avoid those brands because a lack of an affordable V8.

You guys are going to kill Dodge. The incredibly prevalent "becoming more relevant by shrinking marketshare" mindset. How'd that work out for the Big 3 the last 40 years?

This must be an age thing. Anyone under 40 I talk to (and the largest demographic of buyers for Dodge) gets it, anyone over 40 seems to be defending this position. Break out the EBIT and IRR for the last ten years for Dodge after offsetting carbon credits for Dodge - I dare you. Oh, and why do we need the Europeans again? Because we do business in China with PSA platforms and Chinese PSA suppliers provide us non-powertrain parts so we get better global pricing because we're a global automaker? Oh wait. We aren't big in China with PSA and that doesn't actually happen? Hell, even GM gets it right on that front. What do we need PSA for again? Gotta love those Agnelli's, they really look out for North America.

But hey - hurray for 14,000 Hornet reservations! That'll show 'em!

So let me get this straight...

When I grew up as a kid in the 70's and 80's, that is, back when they were still purely American owned, Dodge had NO V8 Muscle cars.

No vocational trucks. I never saw Dodge Tow trucks or utility trucks. I once saw a 60's Power Wagon at a country gas station, but that's it. Everything was either Ford or Chevy.

This pretty much continued up through their big revival in the mid 90's.

Under Fiat stewardship, they took whatever Dodge had, and elevated it to the point they outsold the Mustang!!!! and even the Chevy Silverado!!!!

Back when I grew up, If you had asked 1 million of the most die hard Mopar loyalists (American) if this was even possible, pretty much NONE of them would have said yes.

Heck, you don't even have to go back that far. If you had asked the same question of the entire planet back in 2009, or 2010, NO ONE would have said it was possible.

And yet, the Europeans actually ADDED to the tremendous legend of the Hemi with the Hellcat. That is, if you believe the Europeans were involved with it, rather than the Americans who were running things locally.

Personally, I choose to believe that the people running Dodge and Ram (the brands) have done a great job over the past 10 years. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they have something big in store for fans.

Just my opinion.

 

[cygnus]

I don't know what Dodge's marketshare was in the 70s but I'm going to guess it was below Ford and GM - I trust you can fact check me on that.

Dodge created a market leading offering, completely obliterated the Camaro and Mustang in sales with a V8, and now they're walking away from that market. Who made the call to eliminate the V8 - was it Engineering, or was it Leadership? Name names - Tavares and Angelli, stand up and stake your career on this. Go to Brampton and Windsor and address the workers on why they're eliminating the V8s - so they know who to thank when shifts get cut.