Better start thinking of a new name for the Cherokees

[Tony K]

I don't get the complaints about "woke" culture. Is it really so wrong to, within reason, remove offensive words and imagery?

There's the key (within reason).

 

[Deckard Cain]

I can imagine the issue if it was something like Jeep Redskin or Jeep Savage, as those are derogatory words. Cherokee is the name of their tribe though, so if they have a problem with that word they should change the name of their tribe. Obviously this was a case of misunderstanding due to poor journalism, though.

I don't get the complaints about "woke" culture. Is it really so wrong to, within reason, remove offensive words and imagery? I suspect most of the people complaining have never dealt with any derogatory comments about their race/culture though. I haven't dealt with it personally either, but I can at least empathize with someone who deals with profiling on a near-daily basis and would want to make them feel as comfortable as possible.

I agree with you.[superfluous, sorry]

I would say we could let this issue rest now?

 

[patfromigh]

If we were truly to get involved in a discussion of wokeness, we would have to talk about politics, religion and sex. I can't defend my objections here about the woke mob without having to mention all three. The fact that everything has become politicized, including the car business, shows we have a problem in America. This is how we ended up having a discussion about wokeness on a forum about the car industry.

There are places where the full discussion about the woke mob is taking place. Some of it happens on blogs dedicated to politics. Some of it occurs behind the Substack paywall where former career journalists banned for "wrongthink" now support themselves.

 

[Deckard Cain]

I just find it appalling that even auto magazines are trying to create traffic by using this type of controversies. It's unscrupulous behaviour.

 

[TripleT]

???????

Having traveled the world I don't know what is being talking about. There is typical human curiosity about peoples ethnic origins, and that is universal. It is no way any worse or exclusive to North America.

I am very genetically diverse, But mostly West European Jewish and Norwegian. My blue eyed blonde haired daughter was nearly mobbed in remote area of China, people called us "One of those" , I wouldn't call it racism. I would call it novelty.

My dark skinned Curly haired Son has been asked if he was Mexican when playing soccer, and while traveling in Italy was approached by Italians constantly speaking to him in Italian... he just threw up his hands. Again assumptions made about him based on his secondary characteristics.

I have been subject to several deep searches while traveling in the USA, light hair, light skin, blue eyes, yeah not racism. But while entering Southern Europe I have seen in the passport line every dark skin person screened carefully, and the guy looked at me, waved me in without even looking at my passport.

Never in any of these would be label racism.... it is natural to be curious.... and yes there are external characteristics that are generalized as ones home origin.

None of that has anything to do with subject at hand.

What people in the EU might not get is that here in North America the Marxist which now call themselves Post Modernists have now set about to divide people in ever smaller grievance hierarchies. Race, sexuality, gender being some of the primary categories. Well since selling the whole Marxist on class ended in 160 million dead, I suppose a change in tactics is warranted. But I would contend that this is more dangerous as there is nothing one can do to change their ethnicity, and assigning guilt to people based on who their parents are is exceedingly dangerous. I would contend that itself is the essence of racism..

So basically if the finally judgement of any person that is not as a Individual, it is wrong, and it has always been the "American" proposition, and even if we sometime fall short is that we are all distinct individuals with natural rights.

So forgive some us here if we get impatient with another Group of people trying to climb the grievance hierarchy chain , Yelling LOOK AT US, LOOK AT US ..... we are Offended. It is getting tiresome. And Frankly at some point dangerous.

 

[LeeRyder]

I can imagine the issue if it was something like Jeep Redskin or Jeep Savage, as those are derogatory words. Cherokee is the name of their tribe though, so if they have a problem with that word they should change the name of their tribe. Obviously this was a case of misunderstanding due to poor journalism, though.

I don't get the complaints about "woke" culture. Is it really so wrong to, within reason, remove offensive words and imagery? I suspect most of the people complaining have never dealt with any derogatory comments about their race/culture though. I haven't dealt with it personally either, but I can at least empathize with someone who deals with profiling on a near-daily basis and would want to make them feel as comfortable as possible.

Asking as a white guy.. but have you even been on the internet before?
Whites are nothing but excoriated on a daily basis on fb, Twitter, et al.
I've been called "f*ching white boy" for the crime of being in a black neighborhood.

Woke is a joke. Think twice before you make such a foolish blanket statement again.

 

[patfromigh]

What do you expect from social media? Most of it is the lowest common denominator of human behavior. We have an obligation to be civil on this forum, so we can rise above all that. One thing we can do is give others the benefit of doubt. Not everybody has had negative experiences or been through the wringer at work with some woke HR person fresh out of college. It is a good thing to be concerned about past wrongs and not wanting to repeat the mistakes of the past. The marxist agenda of some political organizations parading as civil rights groups is what I worry about. Such groups hide their agenda behind a cloak of respectability, because most people want to be civil. Sooner or later those groups that seek to destroy our civility will be exposed and be properly judged for what they are.

It goes back to what I said about grace in an earlier post. We have to extend grace to others because we ourselves need it. The alternative is destroying our society with hate and blood feuds.

The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. Hate is an affection just as much as love is. If you love someone you direct your attention towards them. It is the same thing with hate. If you hate someone you direct your attention towards them. Hate is dangerous because a person can soon become like the person or people they hate. Even if a negative stereotype isn't true, haters will become what they object to.

I have probably made a lot of foolish blanket statements in this post. I'm sorry. I have the advantage of living and working in very diverse environments. It is much more difficult to hold on to an offense because I myself have offended others. Cross cultural communication can be very difficult. It isn't just the language, one has to mindful with gestures and body language as well.

 

[Ryan]

Asking as a white guy.. but have you even been on the internet before?
Whites are nothing but excoriated on a daily basis on fb, Twitter, et al.
I've been called "f*ching white boy" for the crime of being in a black neighborhood.

Woke is a joke. Think twice before you make such a foolish blanket statement again.

Yeah, I'm white too. Like the person above me said, the internet is full of hate toward every group of people by a bunch of idiots hiding behind their computer screens.

White people have no concept of the amount of discrimination and prejudice that is directed toward minorities, whether they are black, Native Americans, Asians, or any other ethnicity. The best we can do is be respectful and try to help make people more comfortable when they bring light to the issues they face.

 

[AlexB]

Yeah, I'm white too. Like the person above me said, the internet is full of hate toward every group of people by a bunch of idiots hiding behind their computer screens.

White people have no concept of the amount of discrimination and prejudice that is directed toward minorities, whether they are black, Native Americans, Asians, or any other ethnicity. The best we can do is be respectful and try to help make people more comfortable when they bring light to the issues they face.

Well put @Ryan.

 

[Mopar Bill]

Unfortunately the name issue is taking the focus off of more important issues and the launch of the car itself. If you are explaining, you are losing. It’s better to have a less controversial name rather than lose a couple percent of customers.

 

[ScramFan]

With respect to everyone here, I sincerely hope this place doesn't become infested with political talk.

In my experience on various forums over the years, nothing kills a community more completely than political talk.

If you never get a sense of what my political views are, then I'm doing it right.

Not calling out anyone, just praying this site doesn't go down the same path as that other site.

 

[Ryan]

With respect to everyone here, I sincerely hope this place doesn't become infested with political talk.

In my experience on various forums over the years, nothing kills a community more completely than political talk.

If you never get a sense of what my political views are, then I'm doing it right.

Not calling out anyone, just praying this site doesn't go down the same path as that other site.

I completely agree.

 

[Tony K]

RE: Politics

Now, I recognize this is basically a "hobby/fan" forum, and not on the same level, but I belong to a professional forum. One of the rules is "No Politics" (the USDoD definition - partisan politics are verboten - "office/general government "politics" are not as long as folks keep to that and stay professional . Besides, you literally can't avoid a discussion of ALL politics in a military forum by definition as war is "politics by other means" per Clausewitz). Anytime partisan politics enters the discussion rears it's head - such as making political hay about German Nordstream II - someone gets politely told to keep on topic and out of partisan politics. People have been shown the door for that (and posting memes which are also against the rules - it's supposed to be a professional forum).

I don't think it's possible to totally avoid the political discussion, especially with respect to things like EPA regulation, fuel taxes, tax incentives, worker organizations, basically any government decisions that have effects on the auto industry or industry in general, we can certainly keep things respectful and not submit blatant partisan post and knee-jerk replies on the same lines. I find it very unhealthy the state of affairs in the West today, and I don't think the web and social media has helped. If you want to make a comparison of politics today to an historic event involving stirring up unrest - rightly or wrongly - look at how events unfolded between the survivors of Germanicus and the Emperor Tiberius in the early first century AD/CE. Yeah, I watched "Caligula: The Mad Emperor" in the "Roman Empire" series on NetFlix last night. Caligula's mother (Germanicus's wife) was a master "ish" stirrer, and in the time where everything was "word of mouth."

 

[TripleT]

Well put @Ryan.

Well racism isn't solved with more racism, it not solved by dividing ourselves in every small and small tribal groups. In fact it is the opposite of helpful, breeds more, and is historically dangerous as hell.

The solution is to treat each person a unique individual, unbound by one secondary characteristics or guilty by association.

And while it is noble to have a site like this political free, it tough when issue like this are entirely driven by politics. The name has existed since the J series, it a problem now because having a grievance has now become overpowering. Independent of race there has never been a better time in world history to be a human, absolute world poverty is being eradicated a rate that is astounding. We should take stock in how much progress has been made. But instead in the name of perfection we wish to return to tribalism. Folks it won't be good.

Treat everyone as a individual and with the respect that they earn. If anyone treat another human being poorly because of who there grand parents were, any, it is wrong. Judge people on merit, period.

 

[Mopar Bill]

Society has evolved in a way that branding using ethnic names is unacceptable to a larger and larger and especially younger more diverse segment of the population. This issue won’t go away and it’s better to deal with it sooner rather than later. Why alienate a percentage of buyers and influencers over branding? When one of the first questions the Wall Street Journal asks the CEO in one of his first press conferences is about this question, it’s not a good look and detracts from more important concerns. As a business, it’s not a good hill to die on. The Washington Football Team would have been better served changing its name sooner. The rational utilitarian question to ask is whether one would use the name for a a new product and I think that answer is obvious.

 

[TripleT]

Where does it end then? Cuz the line keep moving. Valpo just changed it mascot from Crusader's. Name like Patriot are next.

So far Jeep has shown more resistant than I thought. The outrage Mob, the more they empowered the worse it will be.

Personally Jeep people like to use the Codes, if Chrysler is going bow down to Outrage Mob, which will never let up, then that is the best solution.

Otherwise you get names that sound more like a ED drug than a Car or Truck... Like Stellantis

 

[Mopar Bill]

What outrage mob? How about teenagers telling Mom that maybe we should buy the Honda instead?

 

[AlexB]

With respect to everyone here, I sincerely hope this place doesn't become infested with political talk.

In my experience on various forums over the years, nothing kills a community more completely than political talk.

If you never get a sense of what my political views are, then I'm doing it right.

Not calling out anyone, just praying this site doesn't go down the same path as that other site.

So far any discussion about politics-related have been with depth, respectful and well thought out. That’s way different universe than “the other” internet’s site.
I believe given what’s going on in Industry that Stellantis is in that it will be troublesome to not to discuss politics. Stellantis structure had some political overtones as well with a representative of the French union on its Board and for now a seat of the French Government.

 

[TripleT]

What outrage mob? How about teenagers telling Mom that maybe we should buy the Honda instead?

that percentage and demographic is small, more likely the people who can actually afford a new car, will say Jeep bowing down to the Outrage mob, I am not buy another Jeep. Those example are more.... NFL, NBA, Levi, Nike, MLB all embraced the SJW agenda and suffered loses.

Most of the people who complain are not customers in the first place.

 

[Ryan]

that percentage and demographic is small, more likely the people who can actually afford a new car, will say Jeep bowing down to the Outrage mob, I am not buy another Jeep. Those example are more.... NFL, NBA, Levi, Nike, MLB all embraced the SJW agenda and suffered loses.

Most of the people who complain are not customers in the first place.

I think we can start working toward a better conversation by not calling people who disagree with your point of view "the outrage mob." No one is outraged at the Cherokee name. The conversation is whether it's culturally insensitive to use that name, but we've established that the topic wasn't actually brought up by the Cherokee nation.

If you want to talk about the other recent issues that are similar to this one, then yes, there are people who are outraged by certain things but that's not the topic of this conversation and veers way too far into political territory for this forum, or at least for a public conversation on this forum. But you are saying "the outrage mob" as if it's one entity instead of a group of individuals while also claiming that we should view people at individuals instead of grouping them by culture, so your argument is inherently flawed.

Going back to the original topic, I have some Choctaw ancestry. I'm 2% Choctaw, which is enough to be a member of the tribe. I would have no issue with that name being used on a vehicle and I'm willing to bet nobody else would either. There is no problem here - only poor journalism.