Carlos Keynote speech at Paris Autoshow

[cygnus]

$20 million was an inside deal. At auction, any of those plants would have fetched more. The tooling and presses are worth more than $20 million.

 

[AlexB]

There many more examples , but https://www.linkedin.com/in/fatih-demirci-6b997518
Well what do we have here “Sterling Heights” and” Tofas”.
WAIT A minute “Tofas” is legacy
F
I
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Joint Venture in Turkey.
Again , Fiat folks that move to the United States at Sergio’s request .

 

[Deckard Cain]

The times have changed and it's not only the old Chrysler group that cannot come back to be as it was. Many companies with a storied history have been absorbed around the world.
Look at the japanese brands that have been absorbed by Toyota. Subaru, Mazda... Great companies in their own right, but they barely have any independence nowadays.
Look at so many of the historical european companies... Look at the joke that british badges are nowadays: just a badge on chinese imports.

For Chrysler/Dodge, at least there's some autonomy and all the decisions are still taken on the US. As for the US brands shoring up european brands? Sorry, not in Stellantis. The european branch is profitable with extremely healthy margins (even if smaller than North America) and the foothold of the euro brands in LATAM also contribute to that.

I know as a fan of what these brands were in the old days it might hurt. It also pisses me off to see the mismanagement of the italian brands. But you need to understand these are corporations. Their purpose is not to address your nostalgia. They're done and undone, merged or broken into pieces to fill the pockets of their main shareholders. In this case, Exor and the Peugeot family.

 

[TripleT]

It was worse than people think in the waning days. The ax was falling and Chrysler corporation head was completely on the chopping block. The Vultures were there picking what parts they wanted, Nissan would take Ram, Volkswagen the Minivan, and I still don't know, but my guess was Geely would have Jeep. Sadly NO ONE wanted Dodge or Chrysler at any negotiated price, they would take the plant assets for pennies as it was divided up. But neither Ford or GM were in a position to do anything or wanted to do anything positive with those brand assets. FIAT literally saved Chrysler corporation and the brand.

It a dream to think of Dodge or Chrysler as Ford..... it is not even close when Independent. Its best days were as a single company platform was with Sub-brands, the lineup of Sub-brands to make a full product offering. The issue with Chrysler is it job was to sell cars and Minivans. 7 years ago on another forum I basically left because I told them the truth, and they couldn't handle the truth. The Car is dead, I talked to insiders, I knew the capacities, I knew the production plan. The Margins had flipped CUV was going better product the people movers out of the market. Chrysler needed and needs a new mission. Like Deckard says you cannot run a business on some of the Rosiest imaginable Nostalgia, for a brand that truly never was a volume brand, always was a few niche models, only time it was, it basically was bolstered by an Eagle and Plymouths as those brands contracted.

So, if one is truly a fan of Chryslers survival one better darn well have your order in for Airflow the moment it comes out or hello Lancia.

"But I don't want an EV, I want this very specific low margin car targeted at diminishing demographic, that has no ROI" Yeah NO, that not how responsible companies work.

 

[Deckard Cain]

Well, we sure can grumble in forums anyway.
But we can also be excited about the different product that is coming even if it's not what we would personally love.
As for Chrysler, in Portugal in the 90s they left a very good impression. They were perceived as a semi-premium brand. Granted those were the golden days of Chrysler... Then the brand disappeared from our country but it left a good impression on people's minds since the cars were beautiful and they didn't stay enough time or had enough volume for people to attach any negative sentiment to the brand. The Lancia Thema (Chrysler 300) was also sold with a high price as well and is something of a curiosity/rarity.

I know it's not the same, but come on, the Dodge Barracuda looks freaking awesome. And together with the Maserati GranTurismo it's quite clear that Stellantis is the only one that is injecting real passion into BEVs. I believe in 20 years they'll be looked back as classics.
The Tesla Roadster is vaporware and Ford or GM just launch crossovers. The germans in BEVs, to me have the Taycan and the i4 as interesting propositions. However, they haven't done anything special in terms of sound or giving a special feeling to their cars. They don't have the passion for exploring this new field that Dodge or Maserati are showing.

 

[patfromigh]

Since I have heard it's a real deal, the BEV I'm most interested in is the Abarth version of the 500e. I have no idea what the specifics are though. If Fiat gives the new 500e enough upgrades to make it more practical for North America, I would also consider that. It seems likely the Jeep Avenger EV won't cross the ocean and I'm really interested in what will instead anchor the bottom of the Jeep lineup in North America. I like the Recon concept, but I suspect it won't be cheap. I don't want dual electric motors because of the complexity involved along with the extra battery capacity needed. What attracted me to battery electrics in the first place was the simplicity such technology can offer, but few EVs truly are simple. The Fiat 500e remains an exception and I know of some happy Nissan Leaf owners. Simplicity to me is a compact drivetrain placed over the drive wheels. Software and programming are today a fact of life, so I'm not referring to that, but when juggling front and rear drives, complexity more than doubles.

I'm going to now contradict myself and mention plugin hybrids. They have an engine and a motor to juggle, but hybrids never promised simplicity in the way it was touted in the film Who Killed the Electric Car? . In reality, sophisticated battery electrics require serious maintenance. I've driven most of the hybrids available in our fleet. The Chrysler Pacifica PHEV is a real joy when it's charged, but it seems to be a rare thing for rentals. I've had some experience with the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV as well, and it uses the same system the Jeep Renegade and Compass 4Xe plugin hybrids use. None of the rental fleets around here have the Wrangler or Grand Cherokee 4xe models that I know of. I'm very curious what the hybrid picture will look like for the North American brands. When the Jeep Avenger was shown in Europe, a 4Xe hybrid concept was shown as well. Would they offer some sort of hybrid variant of the Jeep Recon? I would find it acceptable even if Jeep went with the single electric motor connected to a traditional drive line, like the Magneto concepts use.

The problem with North America is that the people running things don't a good grasp of reality. They charging infrastructure capacity is nowhere near what they say it is. Now EV owners have to worry that the copper thieves have arrived before they charge up. America is just getting started on the hard sell for battery electrics and with only the recent increase in market penetration there are now lines at the charging stations. (Battery electrics went from 2% to nearly 6% of the market, so some see this as a dramatic increase.)

With these charging infrastructure woes popping up here in America I'm hoping Stellantis will hedge their bets and offer more plugin hybrids or even some range extender options. I'm guessing that the battery electric ProMaster shouldn't be affected too much by these problems because fleets often provide their own charging solutions. People with garages should be OK if they never have to venture beyond a certain range. Then we only have to worry about having enough electricity generated to support everything being pushed onto us.

 

[Deckard Cain]

I'd like to know more about the 500e Abarth as well. I liked the leaked photo but am curious about the power the engine will do and if they'll use a bigger battery pack.
I think that there's a lot of untapped potential in BEV charging for companies to offer more charging spots. I cannot fathom how gas companies are dragging their feet at placing charging spaces in their fuel stations at least in Europe.
In here, 16% of New Cars Fully Electric and 24% Have a Plug (so 8% PHEVs on top of those 16%). The gas companies will lose a lot of business in their fuel stations to Fastned, Ionity, Tesla if they don't wake up.
With 20-30 minutes to get BEVs from 10% to 80% of charge people with BEVs will spend more money in the stations eating and drinking than people in gas cars.

 

[TripleT]

Since I have heard it's a real deal, the BEV I'm most interested in is the Abarth version of the 500e. I have no idea what the specifics are though. If Fiat gives the new 500e enough upgrades to make it more practical for North America, I would also consider that. It seems likely the Jeep Avenger EV won't cross the ocean and I'm really interested in what will instead anchor the bottom of the Jeep lineup in North America. I like the Recon concept, but I suspect it won't be cheap. I don't want dual electric motors because of the complexity involved along with the extra battery capacity needed. What attracted me to battery electrics in the first place was the simplicity such technology can offer, but few EVs truly are simple. The Fiat 500e remains an exception and I know of some happy Nissan Leaf owners. Simplicity to me is a compact drivetrain placed over the drive wheels. Software and programming are today a fact of life, so I'm not referring to that, but when juggling front and rear drives, complexity more than doubles.

I'm going to now contradict myself and mention plugin hybrids. They have an engine and a motor to juggle, but hybrids never promised simplicity in the way it was touted in the film Who Killed the Electric Car? . In reality, sophisticated battery electrics require serious maintenance. I've driven most of the hybrids available in our fleet. The Chrysler Pacifica PHEV is a real joy when it's charged, but it seems to be a rare thing for rentals. I've had some experience with the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV as well, and it uses the same system the Jeep Renegade and Compass 4Xe plugin hybrids use. None of the rental fleets around here have the Wrangler or Grand Cherokee 4xe models that I know of. I'm very curious what the hybrid picture will look like for the North American brands. When the Jeep Avenger was shown in Europe, a 4Xe hybrid concept was shown as well. Would they offer some sort of hybrid variant of the Jeep Recon? I would find it acceptable even if Jeep went with the single electric motor connected to a traditional drive line, like the Magneto concepts use.

The problem with North America is that the people running things don't a good grasp of reality. They charging infrastructure capacity is nowhere near what they say it is. Now EV owners have to worry that the copper thieves have arrived before they charge up. America is just getting started on the hard sell for battery electrics and with only the recent increase in market penetration there are now lines at the charging stations. (Battery electrics went from 2% to nearly 6% of the market, so some see this as a dramatic increase.)

With these charging infrastructure woes popping up here in America I'm hoping Stellantis will hedge their bets and offer more plugin hybrids or even some range extender options. I'm guessing that the battery electric ProMaster shouldn't be affected too much by these problems because fleets often provide their own charging solutions. People with garages should be OK if they never have to venture beyond a certain range. Then we only have to worry about having enough electricity generated to support everything being pushed onto us.

I think they actually have a grasp on it. They just aren't being honest. If it was up to them, they would plain outlaw the sales of private transportation, something they can't say out loud. See "you will own nothing and love it". They perfectly fine with you realizing that you might as well take the train or the Bus. Especially since it couldn't charge last night because of the brown out, or that your 200 amp service means you can choose the cool your house or run your refrigerator..... or drive to work. This "Pushes" you into making the proper decisions to improve you ESG score so you can buy groceries next week. Meanwhile they will still take their private jets and Limos around while telling you how to live.

 

[Deckard Cain]

I think they actually have a grasp on it. They just aren't being honest. If it was up to them, they would plain outlaw the sales of private transportation, something they can't say out loud. See "you will own nothing and love it". They perfectly fine with you realizing that you might as well take the train or the Bus. Especially since it couldn't charge last night because of the brown out, or that your 200 amp service means you can choose the cool your house or run your refrigerator..... or drive to work. This "Pushes" you into making the proper decisions to improve you ESG score so you can buy groceries next week. Meanwhile they will still take their private jets and Limos around while telling you how to live.

Who are "they"? Every government of developed countries do whatever it takes to have the auto manufacturers or suppliers installed in their countries. It's crucial for the economies of those countries, and usually when factories are installed in a country it will stay there for at least a decade for the manufacturer to recoup its investment.
The "you will own nothing and love it" actually comes from corporations that prefer that you pay a recurring subscription for a service than sell you a product once. This is not something that governments want. That is corporate greed pushed by idiots from consulting companies.

Now, as for taking the train or bus, how the hell is that part of a conspiracy? Trains are an amazing means of transportation: confortable, reliable,safe and, in countries with well-run high-speed networks, very punctual and competitive with airplane flights on medium distances. They handily beat cars. Buses? Again, what's the problem with public transportation? Go live in a city with decent public transport for a while instead of making everything sound like a conspiracy. Also, you don't need to charge a car every night. I know, I'm driving a BEV now and I make over 100km per day with it and without a charger at home. Haven't had any issues and I'm on an area that still doesn't have a lot of chargers.

 

[TripleT]

Well for starters Klaus Martin Schwab is not a corporation. And it not a conspiracy if they (being those who wish to guide public policy) tell you the motivation to your face, sorry if not everyone is paying attention.

Interesting rebuttal to advocate for exactly what motivates. YES, THEY prefer you use public transport. Got news for you it sucks in the USA.

 

[AlexB]

Who are "they"? Every government of developed countries do whatever it takes to have the auto manufacturers or suppliers installed in their countries. It's crucial for the economies of those countries, and usually when factories are installed in a country it will stay there for at least a decade for the manufacturer to recoup its investment.
The "you will own nothing and love it" actually comes from corporations that prefer that you pay a recurring subscription for a service than sell you a product once. This is not something that governments want. That is corporate greed pushed by idiots from consulting companies.

Now, as for taking the train or bus, how the hell is that part of a conspiracy? Trains are an amazing means of transportation: confortable, reliable,safe and, in countries with well-run high-speed networks, very punctual and competitive with airplane flights on medium distances. They handily beat cars. Buses? Again, what's the problem with public transportation? Go live in a city with decent public transport for a while instead of making everything sound like a conspiracy. Also, you don't need to charge a car every night. I know, I'm driving a BEV now and I make over 100km per day with it and without a charger at home. Haven't had any issues and I'm on an area that still doesn't have a lot of chargers.

There are
The United States overall is very rural,but even in many big cities (example, Houston) you still need a vehicle to get around especially with those cities that are wrapped & connected by highway .

 

[patfromigh]

I live in a region with one of the better public transportation networks in the USA. I have a senior discount and live on a "frequent bus route" and work at the airport. I drive to work like many of my fellow airport workers because the service is terrible. While the airport is a 24/7 operation, the public transit in my region isn't. The first time I rode the bus again after the pandemic lock-downs, I found the bus shelter where I transfer downtown was full of bullet holes.The subway running under the airport is so bad at night the major airline at our airport runs their own busses for its employees.

The United States has been undergoing social engineering for a century now. Zoning laws used to be under the discretion of local governments, these has been usurped by federal agencies which tie zoning to federal funds. Housing, commerce and industry are now separate with very little mixed use development. This makes public transit highly impractical for most of the US population. The first industry to undergo total socialization by the federal government was the private public transportation systems. Prior to WW2 many of the electric street railways (called streetcars in the USA and trams in the EU) were owned by the electric utilities. During FDR's New Deal legislation a law was passed forcing the electric companies to give up their transportation holdings. That's a part of the great streetcar conspiracy (which many American citizens of a particular political persuasion subscribe to) always leave out of the narrative.

The only privately run transit company that I know that is left is in Las Vegas. I don't know if they survived the pandemic as a privately run network. The management avoided using federal money for buying vehicles so they can buy the best of what is available on the global market as long as it meets EPA requirements. That service ran a profit up until the pandemic. The monorail is the only government run service in Las Vegas and it is a money pit.

Even including the days of the Soviet Union, the United States has the most centralized government agency run public transit in the world.

 

[cygnus]

The US isn't and will never be designed for public transportation outside of a few cities.

The closest we'll get is LIDAR assisted 100 MPH dedicated highway lane autonomous driving with landmark and route models that are updated from high bandwidth wireless connections (on the vhiecle), the delta between the in-vehicle sensor data & model calculated in the cloud, and feeding the vehicle new optimized edge case error handling. But we're probably 20 years away from that.

If it doesn't save you time, it's a convenience/toy. The holy grail is very high speed autonomous vehicle driving lanes.